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1. CPS does not just run in and remove children willy nilly.
2. 4 and 5 year olds are a risk of imminent death being left alone that long. Can you think of a worse outcome than that?
Oh, sometimes they do. And especially if you are a minority, or have little money and don't have the resources to fight back, you might be without your kids for a while. And even if you do prevail, the children meanwhile have endured trauma.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt
The kids were not removed from their home, and like all stories, we may not have all the information. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...lone/25700823/
What do you think is worse? Leaving a 2 and 3 year old home alone? Sure there are worse things, but these kids are in a very high-risk situation.
And those kids and the parents had to endure trauma. The privileged parents were able to fight back. Had they been poor minorities, they would not have the kids, and they'd be who knows where?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt
You missed the point. chicagoliz posted: "While I'm not going to recommend that someone leave their 4 and 5 year olds alone for significant periods of time, there are worse things."
I asked what would be worse, leaving a 2 and 3 year old?
I don't know how anyone can justify the parents' actions. These kids are too young to leave alone for two hours, locked up in a house.
What's worse? Being abused, sexually or physically by other children or parents in a foster home, being starved for so long that growth is stunted, being forcibly removed from schools, friends, family, home, pets because someone thinks they know better. Having a judge not allow an aunt to foster you because she allowed you to see your mom, and then the state has a pair of psychopaths adopt you, peddle your image on the news to feed their sense of saviorism, starve you for years, and then strap you in a car with your siblings while they drive the car off a cliff into the ocean to kill you.
We're not talking about 2 and 3 year olds, but I still would say abusing them, killing them, or traumatizing them for life is worse than the being unsupervised for a couple hours.
IMO it isn't optimal to leave a 4&5 y.o. home alone (would be great if the neighbor girl could babysit them. I liked the suggestion about stating she needs to watch kids for a class assignment).
For sake of the argument it could be the kids are wearing gizmos (kid cell phones with gps)so their parents can know if they leave the house ect and only have to push a button to call the parents/911. Also maybe they have a nanny cam so the parents can check in via a phone/computer monitor.
So start out by lying? I don't think so.
The only thing all these electronic gizmos would do is give the parents a false sense of security.
Oh, sometimes they do. And especially if you are a minority, or have little money and don't have the resources to fight back, you might be without your kids for a while. And even if you do prevail, the children meanwhile have endured trauma.
And those kids and the parents had to endure trauma. The privileged parents were able to fight back. Had they been poor minorities, they would not have the kids, and they'd be who knows where?
What's worse? Being abused, sexually or physically by other children or parents in a foster home, being starved for so long that growth is stunted, being forcibly removed from schools, friends, family, home, pets because someone thinks they know better. Having a judge not allow an aunt to foster you because she allowed you to see your mom, and then the state has a pair of psychopaths adopt you, peddle your image on the news to feed their sense of saviorism, starve you for years, and then strap you in a car with your siblings while they drive the car off a cliff into the ocean to kill you.
We're not talking about 2 and 3 year olds, but I still would say abusing them, killing them, or traumatizing them for life is worse than the being unsupervised for a couple hours.
1. Do get off the soapbox. If you want to discuss the issue of "big, bad CPS" and racial disparity, etc, start your own thread.
2. What is up with this false dichotomy you've created between an abusive child care home and staying home alone? That is not the issue we're discussing with this family. Do you mean to say that 4/5 year old kids should not go to day care at all, and should be left alone?
In fact, if that's your issue, again, start your own thread because that is not what is being discussed here. And if you're too lacking in knowledge about child development to think that 4/5 year olds can and should be left alone, you should take a child development class.
Oh, sometimes they do. And especially if you are a minority, or have little money and don't have the resources to fight back, you might be without your kids for a while. And even if you do prevail, the children meanwhile have endured trauma.
And those kids and the parents had to endure trauma. The privileged parents were able to fight back. Had they been poor minorities, they would not have the kids, and they'd be who knows where?
What's worse? Being abused, sexually or physically by other children or parents in a foster home, being starved for so long that growth is stunted, being forcibly removed from schools, friends, family, home, pets because someone thinks they know better. Having a judge not allow an aunt to foster you because she allowed you to see your mom, and then the state has a pair of psychopaths adopt you, peddle your image on the news to feed their sense of saviorism, starve you for years, and then strap you in a car with your siblings while they drive the car off a cliff into the ocean to kill you.
We're not talking about 2 and 3 year olds, but I still would say abusing them, killing them, or traumatizing them for life is worse than the being unsupervised for a couple hours.
For the most part, you're right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt
1. Do get off the soapbox. If you want to discuss the issue of "big, bad CPS" and racial disparity, etc, start your own thread.
2. What is up with this false dichotomy you've created between an abusive child care home and staying home alone? That is not the issue we're discussing with this family. Do you mean to say that 4/5 year old kids should not go to day care at all, and should be left alone?
In fact, if that's your issue, again, start your own thread because that is not what is being discussed here. And if you're too lacking in knowledge about child development to think that 4/5 year olds can and should be left alone, you should take a child development class.
His issue, possibly with your statement, as well as my issue is that you're putting words in her mouth like, it's ok or good to leave a 5 year old at home. It's not ok but, there are a lot of poor parents who no fault of their own don't always have a choice. We are stating, and rightfully so, that some nosy jerk who doesn't realize just how truly traumatic CPS really is, is suggesting a cure that's far worse than the ailment.
While I was in Basic Training (Army) I met roughly 240 people. About 25 of them came from foster care and group homes. ALL said that Basic Training was a better environment than those places and, that they were thankful and lucky to be there instead of being in jail, dead, or having to be a prostitute.
Foster homes routinely treat kids worse than whatever home they came from. Even exCPS workers, of whom I know 4, state that most of their cases are just to maintain an operating budget, foster care really does suck and, that only like 5% of their cases were true emergencies requiring removal. Don't tell her not to refer to them as "big bad CPS", because they have earned every bit of their bad reputation.
His issue, possibly with your statement, as well as my issue is that you're putting words in her mouth like, it's ok or good to leave a 5 year old at home. It's not ok but, there are a lot of poor parents who no fault of their own don't always have a choice. We are stating, and rightfully so, that some nosy jerk who doesn't realize just how truly traumatic CPS really is, is suggesting a cure that's far worse than the ailment.
While I was in Basic Training (Army) I met roughly 240 people. About 25 of them came from foster care and group homes. ALL said that Basic Training was a better environment than those places and, that they were thankful and lucky to be there instead of being in jail, dead, or having to be a prostitute.
Foster homes routinely treat kids worse than whatever home they came from. Even exCPS workers, of whom I know 4, state that most of their cases are just to maintain an operating budget, foster care really does suck and, that only like 5% of their cases were true emergencies requiring removal. Don't tell her not to refer to them as "big bad CPS", because they have earned every bit of their bad reputation.
Are you serious? SHE is the one who concocted this story about abusive care givers, which is NOT the situation in the case we are discussing. She's on a soapbox about abusive child care providers. I was asking for clarification if you will, does she think it's better to let 4/5 year olds stay home alone with NO provider?
No one is saying the kids should be placed in a foster home. That is another false dichotomy chicaogliz has concocted.
The original issue is whether it is "ok" to leave kids home alone at such a small age, which it is not. In that, I absolutely agree with you but, "chicagoliz" is right about a lot of stuff, and it IS relevant.
It's not ok. 5 is too small to navigate conditions that are routine for us. Sometimes, there isn't a choice. Sometimes, there's someone there we don't see. However, it is pretty often, that the person calling CPS is someone who doesn't know all the facts, yet ignores the definite fact that the overwhelming majority of the time CPS causes far worse problems than the ones they solve.
Apparently several people need child neglect and abuse to be defined.
Truthfully, everyone involved knows this is too young to be alone unsupervised.....I don't care how much you try to rationalize it.
OP.............I truly think that you don't know your neighbors at all, otherwise you wouldn't be observing them and starting a thread trying to decide what to do. your concern shows you obviously agree that these young children are in harms way being left alone daily.
One suggestion that I have is to park yourself outside daily, and make sure that the person dropping those kids off sees you. If the parents don't know their small children are being dropped off......being observed.....this driver will stop doing it.
If the parents do .....they will themselves get scared to continue doing it.
Or, It may be that there is someone in the home everyday that you are not aware of.
I would have already either walked over and confronted these "from outward appearances" neglectful parents, or called the police so that they could observe the small children being dropped off alone......anything that will result in this "neglect" or "misunderstanding on your part" stopping is what you should do. Doing nothing has made you part of the problem.
During our stint as foster parents, almost all of our children were worse off getting involved in the system.
We took the kids others didn't want. Less than 10% of the kids went to actual foster parents. Most were in group homes, receiving homes, some institutional like setting. The majority of foster parents were single parents, otherwise they went to the receiving home or very dangerous group homes. 12year olds have no business being with 4 year olds. There are very few "safe" group homes. Sometimes normal kids are put with very danger out kids because there is no where else for them to go. The foster parents are often Transgendered, or flaunt some sexual vice as their identity. Forget the traditional foster family, those are rare.
Many of those parents you would not want your children with. They re single parents doing it for the paycheck just to get by. At best they will be ignored, snapped at, fed cheap crap food, told to stay in the bedroom for hours or treated so bad that's their choice. Anything happens, the system considers these kids damaged so EXPECT them to mis-behave. There is no time to interview or investigate these foster homes after the initial certification. Social worker drops off your kids and many months go by until you ever see her again. The good ones return calls but are so bogged down with HUGE caseloads you don't call unless someone is almost dying. Literally. That's a exaggeration but not by much.
Regular visits to the receiving home opened our eyes. These kids we comforted due to the sexual abuse and stuff that happened to them IN THE RECEIVING HOME. Much abuse is done at the hands of other children.
I had to look up psychiatric meds constantly. Spent my entire day doing this though it wasn't my job description. Their psychiatrist was over 80 yrs old, had his hours cut. NICE NICE fellow who had no idea he was getting dementia. So meds were no doubt, prescribed which shouldn't be prescribed together. It was AWFUL. No doubt children died. Sorry but that is my belief. This is why I quit this job. These kids would act up, suddenly get a diagnosis, no Doctor around, often they didn't even see a Doctor. Yet were prescribed psychotropic meds.
here is a fact- We were certified with 10 other couples. And a lot more single people. Two of those other "couples" were busted for sexual abuse. The Foster parents THEMSELVES are at a much higher risk of being dangerous. Why? because they SEEK these kids out via becoming foster parents. Their level of depravity is FAR HIGHER than the average joe child molester. They go so far that even the system starts noticing, while the behaviors were there, they were ignored. They must've been there because it's the parents fault...somehow. It is normally OTHER foster parents who bust them. Telling the workers this guy or lady, I get a real bad feeling from. They THEY ARE TOLD to do the actual investigation. Paired up with them to babysit their kids. Visit unannounced. There is no time for the Worker to do it. The GOOD Workers have HUGE caseloads and work many unpaid hours.
CPS is very dangerous. I worked there temporarily. Their staff, the majority of Workers, are incompetent. They have authority trips. No one with half a brain will GENERALLY work there. Low pay, long long hours. Lied to by everyone. I stayed at answering the phone but otherwise, the rest was just a total mess. Urine tests were done, drug tests they're known as, and not placed in the fridge. I was in such a hurry once I almost placed someone else name on their cup. TOTAL ZOO. As a new person, I put the urine in the staff fridge and co-workers were angry with me. Where the other fridge was I had no clue, I was EXHAUSTED. No proper training whatsoever, they just threw me into a den of wolves to learn on my own. There were 5-10 urine cups just sitting on a table. THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO GO INTO THE REFRIGERATOR. Otherwise it is possible the test results will be skewed. Yet cups sit there for days on end.
I wish this was the exception. But since moving, our neighbor was a CPS worker high up in the dept of a neighboring County. Same thing. No $$ to fix the system. It all goes to the higher up supervisors
We all know 4-5 yr olds have no business being left alone. That is not the question. Nor is it who can evaluate their development better. We all KNOW a four year olds level to ENOUGH degree.
The fact is YOU NEED TO WEIGH IT OUT. And THE FACT IS, it is more likely two 4-5 yr olds who are trained correctly will fair BETTER with otherwise decent parents than their lifelong trauma of LIKELY experience in the foster care system. This is a TEMPORARY situation as these kids will grow up. The TRAUMA from foster care, AT IT"S BEST SCENARIO, IS ALMOAT AWAYS GUARANTEED TO BE PERMANENT. NOT TEMPORARY. These kids show any sign of resistance to their new foster parents and the chance they are suddenly "diagnosed" with a disorder is MUCH HIGHER.
They drug these kids to keep them in line so foster parents can manage them. I won't even go into all of the identity theft. Sure not everyone but it is MUCH HIGHER the kids social security # will be stolen than if they stayed with their own family.
YES PEOPLE. YOUR OWN CHILDREN may act up in foster care to where otherwise, they would not WITH YOU. It is VERY TRAUMATIC. These psychotropic drugs CAN alter their brains for years or for life. Per my son who has a masters and bachelors degree and wants to be a physical therapist.
This is the reason when you make that call, sometimes kids ARE NOT REMOVED. Because the worker WEIGHED what was best for the children. Not a bunch of uneducated people who are experts at childhood development. The call never results in an innocent verdict wiped from the record. It is only PILED ON to any other calls to the emergency line. It can only be "substantiated" or "unsubstantiated". No one is ever truly cleared, even if they are innocent
GO OVER and visit your neighbors of all ages. DO NOT listen to their parents. They are in a tough situation and if they have an sense about them, will be kind to you for visiting. BECOME THEIR FRIEND. Then YOU can now for sure, more of how to handle it. But if you are next door, and just sit there calling on others to take care of the situation, don't moan when things don't go YOUR WAY since you lack the knowledge to know much due to avoiding helping these small children.
Your experience with CPS is meaningful to you, where you experienced it. There are over 3,000 counties in the US and countless cities, towns and other jurisdictions that administer their own programs. For you to suggest that CPS is a one-size-fits-all proposition everywhere in the country is ludicrous and of no value to the OP. Don't feel bad, a huge percentage of posts on CD apparently come from people who believe their own experiences are a benchmark for everyone, everywhere.
Are you serious? SHE is the one who concocted this story about abusive care givers, which is NOT the situation in the case we are discussing. She's on a soapbox about abusive child care providers. I was asking for clarification if you will, does she think it's better to let 4/5 year olds stay home alone with NO provider?
No one is saying the kids should be placed in a foster home. That is another false dichotomy chicaogliz has concocted.
I'm not "concocting" anything. There are constant stories about these sorts of caregivers. I'm not on a soapbox - I'm addressing the point that was made that since the kids are alone for a short while, they need to be removed. And I'm saying this is dangerous. (BTW: Do you think I made up the story about the kids whose aunt was denied custody and then they were subsequently used and starved by their adoptive parents and ultimately killed by them driving off a cliff? Then you haven't been paying attention to the news. This is a recent, high profile story.)
The false dichotomy is this imaginary fire that everyone is pointing to. For some reason, everyone is assuming there will be a whole-house conflagration just because the kids are home. While yes, fires can and do happen, I would guess that they happen less often than abuse or trauma caused by CPS removing kids and putting them into the foster care system.
There are some good people who work in the CPS system. I'm not saying that everyone there is some evil monster looking to ruin children. But the whole thing is woefully underfunded, understaffed, and under supervised. Even the best people can't provide what the children in the system really need. And the amount of abuse that occurs within it is mind boggling. Everything about it needs a complete overhaul, but that would involve creating multiple other programs that certain people will always object to.
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