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How much one makes doesn't mean a thing; it's purchasing power that counts. If it only costs me $50,000 in Cheapsville to buy what I should have to pay $100,000 for in NYC, in terms of our quality of life and purchasing power - we're even. Many 'Cheapsville' locations are more peaceful and scenic than NYC, if not as culturally sophisticated.
My point was you can make any city have a high cost of living if you want to live in the most exclusive part of the city. There are several million dollar homes in St. Louis that are only 3-3.5k sq ft because they are in prime real estate locations, 5-8 miles away those same homes cost 250-350k. Similarly choosing to live in Manhattan is choosing to live in a prime location. I know way more people working in Manhattan that don't live in Manhattan than do. Are you really "middle class" because you choose to live in the most expensive part of the city and in that area you can only afford what most people would consider middle class in the less expensive parts of the city?
in the real high cost areas THERE ARE NO CHEAP PARTS OF TOWN FOR THE MOST PART . our poor areas like greenpoint , williamsburg , red hook are all big bucks now .
. the high real estate prices in high cost areas go hand in hand . the fault folks find in living in these areas is just the very thing that ends up being a big plus down the road .
a recent survey in long island showed 400,000 folks planned on retiring and selling , taking their windfall and living like kings in cheapsville.
My point was you can make any city have a high cost of living if you want to live in the most exclusive part of the city. There are several million dollar homes in St. Louis that are only 3-3.5k sq ft because they are in prime real estate locations, 5-8 miles away those same homes cost 250-350k. Similarly choosing to live in Manhattan is choosing to live in a prime location. I know way more people working in Manhattan that don't live in Manhattan than do. Are you really "middle class" because you choose to live in the most expensive part of the city and in that area you can only afford what most people would consider middle class in the less expensive parts of the city?
the examples you picked are not apples to apples as they are co-op to condo . huge difference in price .
in both cases if they move to cheapsville they will have windfalls . but odds are what the two examples may consider cheapsville will be different .
in fact when they move to cheapsville even cheapsville will have different priced areas and housing options so the 575,000 person with a co-op may end up in one area in a co-op which has no comparison to a single family home in price . .
eitherway those locals in cheapsville will not have that windfall .
the home in forest hills is a co-op . single family homes in forest hills run 2x that . for comparison if there was a co-op in cheapsville it would be a fraction of that price .
in the real high cost areas THERE ARE NO CHEAP PARTS OF TOWN FOR THE MOST PART . our poor areas like greenpoint , williamsburg , red hook are all big bucks now .
. the high real estate prices in high cost areas go hand in hand . the fault folks find in living in these areas is just the very thing that ends up being a big plus down the road .
a recent survey in long island showed 400,000 folks planned on retiring and selling , taking their windfall and living like kings in cheapsville.
You didn't answer my question. Is the person that owns a 2 million dollar 2 bedroom condo in Manhattan in the same class as the person that owns a 550k condo in Queens?
I was never arguing that there are not differences in what qualifies as middle class in NYC vs. middle class in Birmingham.
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Originally Posted by mathjak107
in both cases if they move to cheapsville they will have windfalls . but odds are what the two examples may consider cheapsville will be different .
in fact when they move to cheapsville even cheapsville will hve different priced areas so the 575,000 person will nd up in one area likely , the other in he classy part of cheapsville .
eitherway those locals in cheapsville will not have that windfall .
the home in forest hills is a co-op . single family homes in forest hills run 2x that . for comparison if there was a co-op in cheapsville it would be a fraction of that price .
you have to understand the difference . what you picked has to do with the type of apartment you picked , not area . it says forrest hills is a co-op . they are as different in price structure as oil and water .
murray st is a 2 bedroom 2 bath . forest hills is a 2 bedroom and 1 and 1/2 bathroom
the same exact building can be next to each other and the sale price is broken up differently .
when you look at the condo price you pay 100% of the equity price in your mortgage . that is the structure of murray st . so when you buy it you need the total price .
the co-op in forest hills has a building mortgage too so part of the sale price is in a mortgage held by the building . that is how co-ops work .
so you end up with a 575k mortgage on your own but your maintenance includes the rest of your mortgage that the building holds .
so you my have a 575k personal mortgage and be paying another 600k off through your maintenance .
as the building side gets paid down the equity shifts to you personal side so by the time the building mortgage is paid you have the same value as the condo .
Last edited by mathjak107; 11-24-2015 at 07:30 AM..
as an example ,we have investment apartments at 200 central park south . a 2 bedroom is about 3 million , we are co-op. the building still has an outstanding mortgage representing another 1/2 owed on that 3 million making the apartment worth 5-6 million. when we sell them we can only sell them for 3 million . we can't include the rest of the value or what is owed in our advertised price
right next door at 160 central park south they are condo . a 2 bedroom is 5-6 million with no building mortgage because it is a condo .
Last edited by mathjak107; 11-24-2015 at 07:30 AM..
it certainly can . homes in forest hills top a few million dollars . there are condo's in long island city queens that are higher then parts of Manhattan . check out home prices in bay terrace where we live . different areas offer different types of property . prices can be effected by the very block .
manhattan is a lot of condo's and co-ops . queens is mostly co-ops with a few condo's and lots of single family homes .
it certainly can . homes in forest hills top a few million dollars . there are condo's in long island city queens that are higher then parts of Manhattan . check out home prices in bay terrace where we live . different areas offer different types of property .
manhattan is a lot of condo's and co-ops . queens is mostly co-ops wih a few condo's and lots of single family homes .
Wow...ok, you win. Although you are essentially arguing my original point for me. Obviously a single family home in a high COL area will be as much if not more than a condo in a higher COL area.
My point was that similar "lifestyles" can cost drastically different money even within 5-10 miles of one another.
If we use your definition of a middle class lifestyle an investment banker that wants to live in a prime location in Manhattan may need to make 1 million + a year, while the couple in Queens living in a similar condo or co-op may be able to live that lifestyle on 150-200k/yr. I am saying they are in different social classes, you apparently don't seem to think that way.
I grew up with plenty of people that lived in Clayton and Ladue in St. Louis. Areas of the city where you had to have 250k+ incomes to afford the same houses where I grew up families with 80-100k incomes could afford. Your argument is because we lived in similar houses we were both middle class, my argument is that they chose to live in the prime area of the city and because of this they were in a different class.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. In my opinion having the option to live in the most upscale part of a city and still maintain the exact same lifestyle of someone that can't and has to live 25+ miles away and commute 1 hour each way to work in the same building as you in Manhattan means you aren't in the same social class.
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Originally Posted by mathjak107
but in all cases anyone eventfully moving to cheapsville will do just great . some will just do even better .
What does this have to do with a person's class throughout their working career?
what does it have to do with their class while working ? a middle class lifestyle in manhattan can run 160k -200k a year . a middle class property is going to be equally as expensive .
but a middle class life style in cheapsville may be 50k a year .
that middle class manhattanite can relocate eventually to cheapsville and have lots left over from the sale of that midle class property.
a middle class income in long island is 100-160k . that middle class home may be 600-800k . once again they sell and relocate and have a windfall left.
what does that middle class family end up with in cheapsville ? a whole lot less . study's show ultimately those in higher cost areas have a higher net worth then those in low cost areas .
the difference in pay is generally not proportional .
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