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Yes. He has been very condescending towards Philadelphia now that you point it out... like he has moved on and up in the world and is now better than us and the metro area.
No your info is not right. Not to mention some other stuff you said earlier about bonuses was way off.
No it wasn't. Wachtell, Cravath, and Skadden all match up to 100 percent. Davis Polk and Sullivan are litigation shops, but still offer bonuses in the six figures. Simpson Thatcher has a lockstep bonus structure, but the bonuses there are also very generous. Shearman and Sterling regularly hands out $100K plus bonuses. Bonuses are being tracked very carefully right now on Above The Law. In general, NYC firms offer larger bonuses than firms elsewhere.
And of course, the financial sector has bonuses that well exceed 100% of base.
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Originally Posted by scosm
I know because I was working at one of these law firms we are talking about until recently.
Does that change the fact you were wrong? Everybody knows that NYC firms dish out the largest bonuses, which is why the NYC market is the most sought after.
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Originally Posted by scosm
This is a completely irrelevant conversation, and for some reason in a conversation about cost of living you keep focusing on prestige and high salaries and which city has the most expensive neighborhoods and highest ranked law firms (a prestige fetish perhaps?). And you repeatedly condescend to Philadelphia compared to its East Coast neighbors. Philly has never been a city to toot its own horn going back to its very beginning, but it has a lot of old money, new money, high paying jobs, prestigious universities, prestigous and profitable companies located in the area, a long tradition of producing excellent lawyers, etc. But the conversation is not supposed to be about what city is most full of itself though - Boston surely has that crown.
No need to be butt hurt about it.
There's a definite connection between prestige, high salaries and cost of living. Professionals in NYC, DC and Boston don't get paid more simply because it costs more to live there. Those cities have the cutting edge work (that's not present in Philadelphia) that attracts the top talent in the nation, if not the world. Clients of NYC law, accounting and financial firms are often the biggest most lucrative companies on the planet and they're willing to pay a higher premium to have the best services. Therefore, people working at those firms get paid more. And those highly paid people are what drives salaries up in those cities. It's not demand by the Section 8 tenants living in the South Bronx or Southeast DC that make those cities expensive.
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Originally Posted by scosm
Dechert and Morgan are global firms. I know these aren't White & Case global firms, but they are still top 50 firms with substantial international presences. You bring up small Beijing offices and ignore big offices in the UK and Europe.
Dechert and Morgan are national firms with offices in different countries. They are not "global" firms like Latham that actually have robust international practice groups. It was common for law firms to open up offices in global cities for the prestige factor, which led to many of them being overleveraged, which then led to massive layoffs. Morgan was so bad that they actually scrapped their entire summer associate program.
Morgan is a national firm with an emphasis on L&E, which is respectable.
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Originally Posted by scosm
And I'm not sure why are condescending about employment law. Or why you dismiss Wilmington out of hand as it is part of the Philly metro. Unless you have some stats about the legal market, please lets let this conversation die.
I'm not "condescending about employment law." I think you're getting a little too emotional about the subject with someone who was actually born and raised in Philly and attended its public schools. LOL. And no, Wilmington is not considered part of the Philadelphia legal market. They are two different things and any attorney from Ballard, Rome Blank, Pepper Hamilton or Drinker Biddle will be quick to tell you that.
So let me get this straight... it costs less to live in Philadelphia because the jobs pay less?
Yes. It's a simple proposition, right? Someone making $80K a year can't buy a $800K house. But someone making $400K per year can. And in SF, DC and NYC, you have a lot of people who make that kind of money.
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Originally Posted by Summersm343
What on Earth are you talking about? Do you think all of these companies get together and decide what to pay employees?
The market dictates that. NYC (finance and a lot of other stuff), DC (law and policy) and SF (tech) are at the top of their game in their respective niches and thus draw the top talent in the national (and global) labor pool. The services of an Apple programmer are in greater demand than someone working at a top Philadelphia company. And that's why you don't have many people in Philly bringing home Apple and Google type paychecks.
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Originally Posted by Summersm343
There are so many factors that drive the COL in an area that you can't pinpoint it to one thing....
Yes, you can. The fact that you have a crapload of people bringing in a crapload of cash is probably the biggest factor.
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Originally Posted by Summersm343
For one, NYC and Boston are COASTAL CITIES
This is a totally ridiculous argument. Boston is no more confined by the Boston Harbor than Chicago is by Lake Michigan. It is a sprawling, low density metro area so prices are not sky high simply because there isn't enough land to build on.
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Originally Posted by Summersm343
NYC is also the Financial Capital of the country
Yes, which means that you have a lot of people there raking in lots of dough. You just completely contradicted yourself.
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Originally Posted by Summersm343
D.C. is the U.S. Capital... which drives up D.C.'s COL
The status as the nation's capital is not what drives up the COL. Its the industry that's derived from that that drives it up.
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Originally Posted by Summersm343
Boston is the capital of New England and a Coastal city, which drives up Boston's COL.
Boston has a lot of venture capital and private equity. Plus top tier law firms and the most NHI funding of any city in the country. Not to mention megaschools like Harvard that are economic drivers on their own.
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Originally Posted by Summersm343
What is Philadelphia the capital of? It is just a natural growing Northeast city that has had to fend for itself against NYC and DC. It's COL is lower because of several reasons, but because jobs pay less here is not the only reason.
What is San Francisco the capital of? That argument makes absolutely no sense. Now I will agree that Philadelphia does not have a particular niche the way DC, NYC and SF do. And that's what makes it less expensive. It's not a city that attracts the top talent that commands the highest possible salaries in any given field.
Industries cluster everywhere - in part to be close to their customers, in part because it's easier to poach talent and in part because it's easier to get the services necessary to support your operations. Big, specialty law firms cluster in NYC because of the clients that are there to service.
Still, your entire argument rests on the ridiculous notion that things are more expensive because people get paid more - and not the other way around. The only thing that is even worth mentioning as "more expensive" in NYC is housing costs - which is a function of supply and demand and nothing more.
Cost of living comparison between NYC and Philly with "100" being the national average.
Food 119 119
Housing 69 299
Utilities 122 135
Transport 102 108
Health 109 112
Misc. 114 118
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
And no, Wilmington is not considered part of the Philadelphia legal market.
Wilmington is part of metro Philadelphia. The trains out of 30th St. in the morning are full of people commuting to work in Wilmington.
Industries cluster everywhere - in part to be close to their customers, in part because it's easier to poach talent and in part because it's easier to get the services necessary to support your operations. Big, specialty law firms cluster in NYC because of the clients that are there to service.
Okay. How does that refute my claim that the firms there attract the top talent that command higher wages?
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Originally Posted by drive carephilly
Still, your entire argument rests on the ridiculous notion that things are more expensive because people get paid more - and not the other way around. The only thing that is even worth mentioning as "more expensive" in NYC is housing costs - which is a function of supply and demand and nothing more.
So if half of the housing in Philadelphia burned down, you think the price of housing will leap to SF levels, and then companies like Aramark will start paying their employees Apple and Goldman Sachs size bonuses? That's so ridiculous on so many levels.
If that is the path to economic prosperity, then it seems that the solution for Philadelphia is very simple: stop building new housing. Once the lack of supply drives home prices up, companies will have no choice but to pay their employees wages that are commensurate with the cost of living, and then everyone will be able to buy luxury cars. Yay!
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Originally Posted by drive carephilly
Wilmington is part of metro Philadelphia. The trains out of 30th St. in the morning are full of people commuting to work in Wilmington.
That's not the issue. Wilmington is not part of the Philadelphia legal market. That's like saying Baltimore is part of the Washington legal market. They are two different markets, period. Philadelphia firms do not even require you to take the Bar in Delaware but they will often require you to take the Bar in Jersey. That says a lot.
Okay. How does that refute my claim that the firms there attract the top talent that command higher wages?
I'm not trying to refute it. You're using it as a shibboleth for why people in NYC get paid more. It doesn't make any sense.
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So if half of the housing in Philadelphia burned down, you think the price of housing will leap to SF levels, and then companies like Aramark will start paying their employees Apple and Goldman Sachs size bonuses? That's so ridiculous on so many levels.
You might know a lot about law firms but you clearly know zero about real estate. If half of Philadelphia burned down tomorrow in a very strategic way (meaning only houses burned down and not commercial real estate) then yes, there would be a severe, short-term rise in rents but it wouldn't be sustained for very long because as soon as the cleanup was over there would be a few hundred thousand buildable lots waiting for hammers and shovels. Rents would probably not fall back as far as their previous levels because the fire would've wiped out a lot of obsolete, 19th Century housing that would be replaced with more expensive, modern, new construction.
Of course with New Orleans a lot of the employment base was lost and a lot of people relocated permanently to Baton Rouge, Houston and Atlanta so that took a lot of pressure off of housing demand but if they had all tried to come back prices would've been off the charts - especially considering that entire sections of that city have been ceded back to nature.
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That's not the issue. Wilmington is not part of the Philadelphia legal market. That's like saying Baltimore is part of the Washington legal market. They are two different markets, period. Philadelphia firms do not even require you to take the Bar in Delaware but they will often require you to take the Bar in Jersey. That says a lot.
That's your point. That's not the point of this thread - which is why Philly is cheaper than Boston or DC. Lawyers don't drive the cost of housing in Philly, NYC or any other city in this country . . . and even if it was true, which is what you seem to be saying, it would be arbitrary since lawyers live where they want to live. Some work in Philly and live in Wilmington. Some live in Philly or DelCo or ChesCo and work in Wilmington.
I'm not trying to refute it. You're using it as a shibboleth for why people in NYC get paid more. It doesn't make any sense.
It doesn't make any sense? What is so hard to understand about certain cities having industries that are cutting edge and lead the globe in innovation? When you're at the top of your game, you charge more and get the best clients. And as a result, the best talent wants to work for you (who expect to be paid more). That's pretty much the way it goes.
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Originally Posted by drive carephilly
You might know a lot about law firms but you clearly know zero about real estate. If half of Philadelphia burned down tomorrow in a very strategic way (meaning only houses burned down and not commercial real estate) then yes, there would be a severe, short-term rise in rents but it wouldn't be sustained for very long because as soon as the cleanup was over there would be a few hundred thousand buildable lots waiting for hammers and shovels. Rents would probably not fall back as far as their previous levels because the fire would've wiped out a lot of obsolete, 19th Century housing that would be replaced with more expensive, modern, new construction.
You didn't answer my question. If half of the housing in Philly burned down (and then all new construction was banned), would it become as expensive as SF?
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Originally Posted by drive carephilly
That's your point. That's not the point of this thread - which is why Philly is cheaper than Boston or DC. Lawyers don't drive the cost of housing in Philly, NYC or any other city in this country . . . and even if it was true, which is what you seem to be saying, it would be arbitrary since lawyers live where they want to live. Some work in Philly and live in Wilmington. Some live in Philly or DelCo or ChesCo and work in Wilmington.
Yes, they do. Do you have any idea how many houses my wife and I have been outbid on? And these people didn't magically come up with 850 Grand because supply was short. "Oh, supply is so short, I'll just magically wish an extra $200,000 per year onto my salary!" The number of people both willing and able to buy a house at the $700K price point in BK or DC is tremendous.
If that is the path to economic prosperity, then it seems that the solution for Philadelphia is very simple: stop building new housing. Once the lack of supply drives home prices up, companies will have no choice but to pay their employees wages that are commensurate with the cost of living, and then everyone will be able to buy luxury cars. Yay!
Well, certain circles in Philadelphia have been suggesting for the last 40 years that we're overbuilt - but changing preferences, demographics and economics is finally taking care of that problem. In my estimation it should come into equilibrium in the next 10-15 years.
And yes, when housing costs rise employers will have to start paying more . . . but i'm not sure how that translates to luxury cars. If you get a raise while housing costs are going up that extra income goes to pay your higher housing costs, not in being able to afford a flashy car. In fact, while pay in NYC averages 40% more than in Philly the cost of living in NYC is 67% higher (almost entirely because housing is 335% more expensive) so you'd actually be less able to afford that luxury car in NYC than in Philly even on the present pay scale.
Honolulu is a crazy expensive place to live. More expensive than NYC. People there get paid more. It's not because Honolulu has such a robust economy. It's because buildable land is incredibly scarce and because it costs more to ship goods out there.
NYC region is the capital of global finance, DC region is the global political capital, LA region is global film capital, SF region is global tech capital. Any cost of living (and salary) comparisons should leave out these cities. Rest of the cities in the US are comparable, and I think Philadelphia is about par with any of them.
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If you get a raise while housing costs are going up that extra income goes to pay your higher housing costs, not in being able to afford a flashy car. In fact, while pay in NYC averages 40% more than in Philly the cost of living in NYC is 67% higher (almost entirely because housing is 335% more expensive) so you'd actually be less able to afford that luxury car in NYC than in Philly even on the present pay scale. 
