Biggest negative contributor to market east (Philadelphia, Mars: townhome, neighborhoods, buy)

[MikeNigh]

What do you think the biggest negative contributor is to market east? The gallery? Some unrenovated buildings? Too much subway coverage? Too much space lost for the convention center etc?

It doesn't seem like there is any good reason it should be second rate.

[FamousBlueRaincoat]

1) Market East is a parking ghetto.

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There's been a lot of investment in cars. Between Independence Mall and the Convention Center there's a lot of demand for parking. There are a lot of big lots in need of really large scale projects (like Casinos and Urban Disneyworlds). That's a lot to overcome. It's not like a Point Breeze where a neighborhood can gentrify one townhome at a time from a middle class person willing to hunker down for a gain of a hundred or two thousand dollars over the course of several decades. In the meantime, the amount of underutilized space just keeps momentum from taking off the way it could. And the lack of momentum keeps car storage a legitimate business model.

2) Market East is where many folks who depend on public transportation come to shop. It's been that way for a long long time. The Market Frankford Line, the Broad Street Line, PATCO, and the regional rails all converge on Market East. Unless Center City hits some kind of critical mass where the wealth of its residents becomes so incredible that it can outweigh the economic situation of those who live in West Philly, Kensington, Frankford, North Philadelphia, Camden, and those without cars on regional rail lines, it's probably not going to change.

The shopping centers of most neighborhoods are the pits. You can't get everything you need at K and A anymore - you hop on the el to kmart instead. Downtown Germantown is a shadow of its former self. I'm more likely to hop on the Chestnut Hill West on a sunday, go to Market East, take a look around Burlington, Ross, Marshalls, or Kmart, and wait up to 90 minutes for a train home than I am to go "window shopping" along Chelten Avenue (a place where you can even get some things compared to other neighborhoods - because mostly the quality sucks and it's not a fun place to be). I imagine lots of folks with cars who live in my area leave the city entirely for shopping, unless they're going boutiquing in Chestnut Hill or Manayunk - but for the significant portion who don't have cars (and probably not a lot of money) going downtown often can make a lot of sense. There's a strong historical precedent for that - but the demographics of the people doing it has shifted dramatically.



One day, after the city leaders are done chasing gimmicks, they may come to realize the health of Market East depends on the health of all the places, mostly within the city, people are coming from to get to Market East. There's a whole lot of excitement about the residential upswing of Center City, and it's not an entirely misplaced excitement, but there's a whole lot more that goes into a downtown of such a large city with a good transit system than people who live within walking distance.

3) Methadone Clinics, tolerance of aggressive panhandlers, intoxicated individuals, mentally insane individuals, and the sheer number of charter schools don't really help anything either.

[Debbie1125]

The Gallery

[cpomp]

Originally Posted by Debbie1125

The Gallery

Definitely the Gallery is the biggest factor. It is a very dated, ugly, low end shopping center that attracts a lot of low life people. It can be uncomfortable to walk through there if you are not used to the area. Adding a mix of higher income housing to the area, as well as higher income stores will help revitalize that area of Center City.

[Angus215]

The big department stores died, leaving a void. Need higher end retail to move in to serve both residents and tourists, and the gallery needs to be gutted.

Its a great location, though, and no reason why it shouldn't improve . . . As long as they don't build a casino. Would be catastrophic to center city.

[mancat100]

Too bad Corestates never built their skyscraper at 8th and Market back in the day. That would have been a huge shot in the arm for that area. Damn bank mergers.

[pman]

Originally Posted by cpomp

Definitely the Gallery is the biggest factor. It is a very dated, ugly, low end shopping center that attracts a lot of low life people. It can be uncomfortable to walk through there if you are not used to the area. Adding a mix of higher income housing to the area, as well as higher income stores will help revitalize that area of Center City.

I don't know that it's the worst part. I think that has to go to the social services. no one has to walk through the gallery. market east was also ground zero for Philadelphia's most notorious slumlord, sam rappaport. it's like a lot of things, the government plans made things worse. they knocked half of old city down for independence mall cutting market east off from old city, then knocked half of market east down. interestingly the parts of market east that do work are the old parts (reading terminal, wanamaker's). the gallery definitely sucks, blank walls, a total lack of investment in the mall itself. I guess if you aren't used to minorities it might be scary but it really just smacks of poor design and under investment. it's basically a highly successful transit concourse with a crappy mall on top of it.

[Angus215]

Originally Posted by pman

I don't know that it's the worst part. I think that has to go to the social services. no one has to walk through the gallery. market east was also ground zero for Philadelphia's most notorious slumlord, sam rappaport. it's like a lot of things, the government plans made things worse. they knocked half of old city down for independence mall cutting market east off from old city, then knocked half of market east down. interestingly the parts of market east that do work are the old parts (reading terminal, wanamaker's). the gallery definitely sucks, blank walls, a total lack of investment in the mall itself. I guess if you aren't used to minorities it might be scary but it really just smacks of poor design and under investment. it's basically a highly successful transit concourse with a crappy mall on top of it.

The fact that its "anchor stores" are Big K-mart and Burlington Coat factor doesn't help much either . . . .

[Whatdoesthefoxsay65]

I go to the Gallery all of the time, I think it is pretty fine. It's designed to be convenient for people to be able to get off the train and buy stuff/get lunch, not a freaking mall like some idiots think it is. Market East is an okay neighborhood to me, I never really buy anything there or spend too much time there. Usually I walk through it to get to Rittenhouse Sq. I've seen plenty of mentally ill people there along with homeless people, and they never seem to bother me that much. Although they do make me laugh when they yell out: "I'm the new William Penn!" and strike a pose like a statue for 5 minutes. It makes waiting for the 17 so much more fun.

[Whatdoesthefoxsay65]

Originally Posted by pman

I don't know that it's the worst part. I think that has to go to the social services. no one has to walk through the gallery. market east was also ground zero for Philadelphia's most notorious slumlord, sam rappaport. it's like a lot of things, the government plans made things worse. they knocked half of old city down for independence mall cutting market east off from old city, then knocked half of market east down. interestingly the parts of market east that do work are the old parts (reading terminal, wanamaker's). the gallery definitely sucks, blank walls, a total lack of investment in the mall itself. I guess if you aren't used to minorities it might be scary but it really just smacks of poor design and under investment. it's basically a highly successful transit concourse with a crappy mall on top of it.

They're common in Europe. And it is not supposed to be a mall for the last friggen time people.