New Rail & Transit Projects in SE PA and Philly (Philadelphia: real estate, neighborhood)

[MsChelle]

I will admit that the 15 is a little slow, but there aren't large stretches of Girard Ave where it doesn't stop. In contrast, there are large stretches of Lancaster Ave where the 10 trolley often doesn't stop. I take the 10 frequently, and it cruises between 52nd & Lancaster and 48th & Girard (by the Old Cathedral Cemetery). As someone who relies on SEPTA, I find the trolleys to be more reliable than the buses in general, especially the longer bus routes. The 46 bus is quite reliable. However, the 65 is quite inconsistent. The 65 would be hard to replace with a trolley, but it often doesn't come on time, even before it gets on City Ave.

I also like that the trolleys are cleaner and can hold more people. They are also quieter. Trust me, you would need an accordion bus to accommodate all of the people on the 10 trolley at many times during the day. The big downsides of trolleys are a lack of flexibility and lack of accessibility. The 15 trolleys have a wheelchair lift, but it's at the back entrance and is pretty slow. The 10, 34, 36, 11, and 13 trolleys aren't wheelchair accessible at all. I know an old lady who says she likes the buses better because they kneel. Also, if people park to close to the tracks or if there's an obstruction on the tracks, your stuck. There was a car fire on Lancaster early this year and it was stuck there for at least 30 minutes. At the same time, the most reliable transportation when it snows is by rail.

Originally Posted by pman

The reading service has a good shot (serves four counties). someone needs to smack chester county across the back of the head, they are still pushing for service to parkesburg even though amtrak serves this route and not supporting service to West chester or the P-ville-paoli LRT, both of which would add more value. I'd rank allentown and BSL extension above newtown, and restoring trolleys is an awful idea. the 15 is terrible.

[DarkWolf]

Originally Posted by MsChelle

I will admit that the 15 is a little slow, but there aren't large stretches of Girard Ave where it doesn't stop. In contrast, there are large stretches of Lancaster Ave where the 10 trolley often doesn't stop. I take the 10 frequently, and it cruises between 52nd & Lancaster and 48th & Girard (by the Old Cathedral Cemetery). As someone who relies on SEPTA, I find the trolleys to be more reliable than the buses in general, especially the longer bus routes. The 46 bus is quite reliable. However, the 65 is quite inconsistent. The 65 would be hard to replace with a trolley, but it often doesn't come on time, even before it gets on City Ave.

I also like that the trolleys are cleaner and can hold more people. They are also quieter. Trust me, you would need an accordion bus to accommodate all of the people on the 10 trolley at many times during the day. The big downsides of trolleys are a lack of flexibility and lack of accessibility. The 15 trolleys have a wheelchair lift, but it's at the back entrance and is pretty slow. The 10, 34, 36, 11, and 13 trolleys aren't wheelchair accessible at all. I know an old lady who says she likes the buses better because they kneel. Also, if people park to close to the tracks or if there's an obstruction on the tracks, your stuck. There was a car fire on Lancaster early this year and it was stuck there for at least 30 minutes. At the same time, the most reliable transportation when it snows is by rail.

All Newer Trolleys or Streetcars are flat in North America , but some of the older ones have stairs which is strange.... Septa plans on replacing all the Trolleys with 2 Models , one is Siemens North America Streetcar and the other is the Portland Streetcar. Rail is often higher capacity then buses except in Philly , but the Newer Streetcars will change that.....

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

All Newer Trolleys or Streetcars are flat in North America , but some of the older ones have stairs which is strange.... Septa plans on replacing all the Trolleys with 2 Models , one is Siemens North America Streetcar and the other is the Portland Streetcar. Rail is often higher capacity then buses except in Philly , but the Newer Streetcars will change that.....

Regarding capacity, it depends on the type of vehicle you are talking about.

A PCC-type streetcar holds more passengers than a 40' long, 96" wide city bus, but I think it is also a little longer than a bus. (SEPTA's buses have been 40' long x 102" wide ever since they figured out that they could run these on even a South Philly main street with parking on both sides.)

The Kawasaki LRVs here are the rough descendants of the PCC and are more comparable to heritage trolleys in capacity. The same goes for the Canadian Light Rail Vehicle (CLRV), introduced around the same time as the ill-fated Boeing Vertol version.

Modern LRVs are articulated, like SEPTA's Neoplan buses, which can usually be found on Routes 9, 33, 48 and 60. And like those buses, they hold about double the number of riders that a standard length vehicle can carry. IIRC, the typical articulated bus is a little shorter than a typical articulated LRV and carries about one-quarter fewer passengers. Low-floor vehicles can hold a few more people in the floor space that otherwise would be occupied by step wells.

[DarkWolf]

Originally Posted by MarketStEl

Regarding capacity, it depends on the type of vehicle you are talking about.

A PCC-type streetcar holds more passengers than a 40' long, 96" wide city bus, but I think it is also a little longer than a bus. (SEPTA's buses have been 40' long x 102" wide ever since they figured out that they could run these on even a South Philly main street with parking on both sides.)

The Kawasaki LRVs here are the rough descendants of the PCC and are more comparable to heritage trolleys in capacity. The same goes for the Canadian Light Rail Vehicle (CLRV), introduced around the same time as the ill-fated Boeing Vertol version.

Modern LRVs are articulated, like SEPTA's Neoplan buses, which can usually be found on Routes 9, 33, 48 and 60. And like those buses, they hold about double the number of riders that a standard length vehicle can carry. IIRC, the typical articulated bus is a little shorter than a typical articulated LRV and carries about one-quarter fewer passengers. Low-floor vehicles can hold a few more people in the floor space that otherwise would be occupied by step wells.

Yes i'm aware of the different capacities , I would assume it be easy to run larger Modern LRVs along the Suburban Trolley routes and along the 15 , 56 , 23 and future routes then the Subway - Surface routes due to the city hall turnaround. Which would mean smaller Portland style modern streetcars....

[Man About Town]

Portland's Skoda articulated streetcars would be a very good fit for the Subway-Surface Lines and Routes 15 and 56. I think they'd even be a good for Routes 101 and 102. But I'm not so sure about 23 due to its long run down narrow 11th and 12th Streets.

[DarkWolf]

Originally Posted by Man About Town

Portland's Skoda articulated streetcars would be a very good fit for the Subway-Surface Lines and Routes 15 and 56. I think they'd even be a good for Routes 101 and 102. But I'm not so sure about 23 due to its long run down narrow 11th and 12th Streets.

They have a smaller version that can be applied to the 23 and other smaller routes..

[DarkWolf]

Urban SEPA Rail / Transit Map - Google Maps

Urban SEPA Transit map , I threw in some of my pipe dreams , and the official build out plans and proposals are in there.

[qjbusmaster]

Originally Posted by MsChelle

In the inner city neighborhoods, a ton of people take mass transit. I take the 10 trolley all the time and I've been on trolley at 12 or 1 pm that were packed. People take the 10 at night too. I've been on it at night a couple of times and have been pleasantly surprised at how many people used it. Regional Rail is expensive.

I call BS trailpass brings down the cost by a HUGE margin and works on ALL SEPTA services including regional rail. The day pass is only $11 which works UNLIMITED ON ALL SEPTA services and regional rail to anywhere.

Originally Posted by MsChelle

Once you go north of the Frankford Transportation Center, bus service in the NE is AWFUL, especially on the weekends. Most of the buses in the NE like the 88, 84, and 66 only run every 1/2 hour or every hour on the weekends.

err 66 runs so frequent you don't even need a schedule what are you talking about??84 and 88 are both complete **** I know but ridership just isn't there that and the fact it tries to be 2 things at once.

[RightonWalnut]

I think it's great Nexis. The city needs better connections to the zoo and the Navy Yard.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by qjbusmaster

I call BS trailpass brings down the cost by a HUGE margin and works on ALL SEPTA services including regional rail. The day pass is only $11 which works UNLIMITED ON ALL SEPTA services and regional rail to anywhere.

err 66 runs so frequent you don't even need a schedule what are you talking about??84 and 88 are both complete **** I know but ridership just isn't there that and the fact it tries to be 2 things at once.

Most city residents use monthly TransPasses rather than TrailPasses, and in the further out parts of the city, there are some good reasons for this.

A TransPass eliminates the need to pay for transfers, and the monthly is priced at the equivalent of 20-22 round trips on a single transit vehicle at the cash fare. (Add in the $1 transfer charge and the number drops to ~14 round trips.)

The cheapest monthly TrailPass (Zone 1; most of the stations in this zone are in low-income neighborhoods of Philadelphia) costs $8 more than a TransPass. You are just getting by and live in a neighborhood with a bus route with 10-minute-or-less peak-hour service, either direct to Center City or to a nearby rapid transit station, running through it and a Zone 1 Regional Rail station on a line with ~15-minute peak-hour service a few blocks away. Which would you buy, and which would you use?

If you live in Somerton, it's way cheaper to buy a TransPass and ride the 58 bus to the El than it is to buy a $155 Zone 3 TrailPass and ride the (R3) West Trenton line into town. (If time is money to you, however, you'll shell out the extra $72. But I'll bet that most of the cars in the Somerton Station parking lot come from the other side of the city line.)

At peak hours, there are a number of bus routes in the Northeast that offer good service, including the other two trolleybus routes (59 and 75), the 67, the 58 and especially the 14, the spine line of the upper Northeast. Midday service on these routes is adequate (20-minute intervals or less). But MsChelle is absolutely correct about the level of service after ~8 pm and on weekends - it's infrequent enough that you have to check the timetable rather than just walk to the stop and wait for a bus. Even the 66 runs at only 20-minute intervals at that time of day, and that's NOT "so frequent you don't even need a schedule." By comparison, the MFL runs at 10- to 15-minute intervals between 8 p.m. and the last train of the day. (I live near Oxford Circle, through which both the 59 and 67 pass; however, those two routes are scheduled so that most of the time, they pass through the circle inbound very close to each other, negating any frequency advantage that might attach to multiple routes serving a single location and connecting to a rapid transit trunk line.)

One other problem with Northeast bus service is that with one exception - Route 70, the Cottman Ave crosstown bus - all the main routes originate at FTC (save the 59, which originates at Margaret-Orthodox). Thus you have weird routings like that of the 84, which heads towards the Delaware before going back over to Franklin Mills Mall, and the 67, which serves the same end destination via the *west* side of the Northeast. Then there are the low-density suburban neighborhoods with few thoroughfares running through them, necessitating meandering routes like the 20.