Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I do think you have the right word in there, "coping". I don't think, even with the best possible outlook on life, that we can make "blissful" a criteria of "worthwhile". But perhaps we can say it must be possible to "cope", in order to make life worthwhile. And if it cannot be coped with, we should discourage it. And if that is the criteria we use (which is convenient for me to use my own criteria ), I think the suicide rate makes more sense as a metric, as does the idea of forcing existence upon others.
It's true that a lot rides on your standards as to what constitutes an acceptable or even expected existence. I would caution, though, that it is still possible to be abjectly miserable and not commit suicide. Not everyone who is truly miserable commits suicide, and in fact, not all who commit suicide are truly miserable. Sometimes both suicide and living are not very mindful actions. Maybe unmindful, unaware, incurious people don't care that much and so their suffering can be discounted. It is often said that people tamp down their self awareness in order to avoid dealing with their mortality; maybe by extension that's how they deal with whatever personal purgatory they are saddled with, too.
I tend to have too much empathy and compassion to write off anyone's suffering as unimportant though, even if they don't know anything more than that for themselves.
The question of standards is an interesting one. Evolution cares only that we reproduce and minimally care for our offspring such that they will also eventually reproduce. This optimizes for survival, not for enjoyment. Most humans want to do more than merely survive, though, and even if most get by on merely hoping for better things around the ever-receding next corner, I am of the opinion that there are in fact lives that are not worth living. For instance, the life of the plucky cancer victim fighting to stay alive any way they can is not a life I would choose for myself. For sure, if I had one of those cancers with a 25% chance of responding to chemo and "responding" means simply adding a year or two to your existence in exchange for 6 or 12 months of retching and baldness, I would definitely not pursue treatment and in fact I would probably make arrangements to end my life in a manner of my own choosing if I could expect a lot of pain. Some things just aren't worth it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinEden99
My wife had a much more troubled childhood than I did. It would likely depend on the day, the mood, the situation, etc. but she would likely say the same...that if she could have chosen, she would have never been born in the 1st place. Even though that necessitates that her children would not exist either (which is her life)
I can say the same about my own wife, and her rationalization is that the only way she can possibly exist as herself, is as the product of her family, dysfunction and all. It (and her failed first marriage) is the only way she could have the children that she has, who she would not trade for anything. And so on. I do not disabuse her of this notion by pointing out that it's also the only way she could have generalized anxiety disorder, insomnia, addiction issues and a daughter who is cruel and toxic to her. Who am I to pop her bubble. Especially with such a creative rationalization. She is to be commended.
Okay, so the OP isn't a risk taker with the concept of fatherhood.
Raising kids is a risk. We do the best we can, and the lucky ones will have well-adjusted children enter adulthood. Others - and I've known some parents who tried very hard to do everything right - still had children go awry, cause heartache, and become adults not worth the air they breathe. Once in a while a child raised in a dysfunctional family will grow up "in spite of" and do fine.
If the OP has no desire to enjoy good, positive moments with a child, and nurture it, because he's afraid of failure - with himself, or the child, or life in general - then it'd be best not to do it. I do not believe that everybody is cut out to be a good parent, or that it's everyone's purpose in life.
...Now to the point of the OP ... my children (both are adults) are coping, for some given value of coping. I won't bore you with details -- they don't matter. Suffice it to say that I regret rolling the dice with them -- not because of who they are, but because of the net total of suffering between them. I love them beyond my ability to express it, but as is often the case, love doesn't ease their suffering. In some ways it makes the suffering bearable, but it doesn't change the fact that by having children I added to, rather than subtracted from, the total suffering in the world.
Agreed. I also think it's interesting that someone can truly love someone or something, but be absolutely terrible at it. This is certainly true of my mother: While I'm almost certain she loves me, this doesn't change or alleviate that she was a lousy parent. I'm baffled so many people don't understand that loving your children and being a good parent are completely different.
I think that's a significant part of the problem of having children: prior to having children many eventual parents don't understand how to be good parents, and many simply aren't well suited for parenthood. For such persons to force existence on someone else seems especially selfish. But of course lousy genes and other issues can trump even the best parenting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluesmama
If the OP has no desire to enjoy good, positive moments with a child, and nurture it, because he's afraid of failure - with himself, or the child, or life in general - then it'd be best not to do it. I do not believe that everybody is cut out to be a good parent, or that it's everyone's purpose in life.
I'm not afraid of failing myself because that would only effect me. But failing in and endeavor that adversely effects someone else is something I'm not comfortable with. If I fail in a career -assuming someone else isn't harmed in the process- I only have to to deal with self-disappointment; I'm okay with and can accept that. But having a child who winds up being miserable, psychotic, etc.? I would feel worse doing that than just about any other kind of failure I can imagine.
Last edited by PanapolicRiddle; 01-27-2015 at 09:38 PM..
I agree, and that's part of the issue. Even normally well-adjusted persons will probably have difficult enjoying life in the future, much less someone prone to anxiety, depression, etc.
To be honest, ever since about the age of 12 I've been thoroughly convinced my mom never should have forced existence on me.
One could argue that having children is always slightly selfish.
If I had been born with wealth, or was allowed by the tax system to keep a decent portion of the wealth my spouse and I earned, I would have had kids. If I could give them enough to assure them a decent life, and still keep enough to retire on, that would have been sufficient.
But understanding how our working class had continually lost power since the early 1970s, I could see no reason to bring into the world new humans that would be nothing more than slaves for Big Government and Big Business. Said potential kids would have been born in the mid-1980s, and virtually none of the children born to our peers have found even basic economic stability. Given that these same kids born in the late 1950s would have been assured great careers, I don't think those kids got any favors from their parents.
I have a daughter and yes I caused her existance, forced her to live in an often screwed up world and have to bear responsibility for that. It is of course just the way things work in nature.
If you look at this from the spiritual side of things, everyone chooses to be incarnated, chooses their parents and bodies, lives, etc. This choice is based on finding a life/family that will best help a given soul to progress/grow/mature/learn lessons that need to be learned. These lessons aren't always fun, sometimes people choose handicapped bodies, families living in poverty, abusive households, etc, for the lessons and growth that such adversity inherently holds.
Basically, nothing is by accident.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
), I think the suicide rate makes more sense as a metric, as does the idea of forcing existence upon others.
