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The post makes me think about how my, post WWI generation is really the first to not rely totally on natural selection. We had antibiotics, vaccines and other medical advances that caused us to survive, when we otherwise would not have.
In other words, we are the products of those before us who survived because of their strength, but civilization is now weakening.
Maybe, in the end modern medicine will cause the end of the human race, since not only the strong survive, but so do the weak.
natural selection - No, once humanity began cultivating crops (instead of just hunting & gathering), food density built up & planning was possible. We've always looked for better food crops, & selectively bred plants & animals to maximize outputs, minimize growth time, etc. Look @ potatoes, rice, corn - they start out as barely edible, barely yielding plants. Even in the 1950sCE, we were up to what we recognize as sweet corn - good-sized ears, lots of sugar, machine harvestable.
antibiotics - are often produced by finding & isolating the active ingredient in beneficial herbal cures - quinine, for instance. Or penicillin, discovered in bread mold & its antibiotic qualities noticed by chance. Medical research now routinely targets biologicals in old-growth jungles, forests, etc. We know those wild or mostly wild biomes in the World are under pressure - we need to get in there & see what there is to harvest before the deluge. (Optimally, we should preserve some wild areas in the World - but I don't think that's going to happen.)
caused us to survive - a matter of emphasis. It's not caused us, it's permitted us to survive. There may be a natural limit to how old humans can become in nature. & of course, we're not limited to purely natural means anymore - we'll just have to see if antiagathics become practical. On a larger note, most extensions to human lifespan are/were caused by widespread access to clean water, sewage systems, more & better food, heat, electricity, basic sanitation (hand washing, food prep, refrigeration) & so on. Medicine can actually cure more conditions, & surgery isn't the deathtrap is used to be (mostly antibiotics). (& this is mostly in Western Civilization - other places are catching up, but not quite all there.)
civilization is now weakening - I think that's backwards - civilization is strengthening, it's individuals who are weaker (because of specialization & lack of a wider base of contact with nature) than they used to be. Specialization makes societies more nimble & responsive to changing conditions - but @ a cost in general skills that aren't used every day. Basic survival skills are shorted - because only hobbyists pursue them to any great extent.
Modern medicine can perform near-miracles now - but practiced in the US manner, @ an extreme price. Modern medicine, with the right inputs, can extend life for a long time - but the wisdom about the self-worth or worthiness of that life - doesn't lie solely within the science of medicine.
But then, Who is? (& would they admit it, if they were?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mydreams
Who said anything about your actions, mistakes or accidents? I clearly said that everything you are as a person, physically and mentally is determined by genetics. This is a fact. Everyone is different because of it, not even twins are the same. That has nothing to do with your actions. Your actions, inaction, mistakes, etc are all because of decisions you made or consequences that happened, which in many cases, are outside of your control. Does how your brain is wired and operates, influence your actions?
YES, and so does your upbringing. Does genetics determine how your brain reacts to negative or positive upbringing? YES
Genetics is a very broad term, but not everyone's DNA is the same. This is what makes you different. This is what determines how you will look like physically. It will make you biased to certain behaviors, temperaments and personalities, due to the way your brain was wired and the physical parts were made. Everyone's brain is made different.
So, it is true, that everything you are now, was truly determined before you were even born. This includes genetics and epigenetics. All of this happened before your mother gave birth to you.
...
Genetics lays a framework, a skeleton, if you like. But the CNS in humans is very plastic, although with windows for certain optimum development. Speech, for instance; language in general for another. Reading/writing. The capabilities are there in the brain, dormant. If never stimulated - or stimulated after the optimum age is past - the resulting performance will never be as good as it would have been otherwise. Look @ people who simply cannot master a language after say age 20 or so. Even though every healthy human baby apparently has perfect language-learning (hearing, phonics, reproduction, articulation, tone, accent, & on & on) potential - but if that potential is never or poorly exercised, again, the potential is overwritten with other skills, or that part of the neural net atrophies altogether.
& this is an old idea - that genetics determines outcomes. As I recall, it's the backstory of E. E. Doc Smith Lensman series of SF novels - very interesting reading back when, to be sure. But the science has eclipsed those mechanical notions. Sure - if you could somehow monitor all activity everywhere in the universe without thereby affecting outcomes, & kept @ it - presumably you could foresee a barbershop accident & predict how many hairs would be miscut - the trope of the novel. It's an interesting notion, but we'd have far better uses for that many teraflops of data crunching. & there is no such monitoring system in the World, that I'm aware of. Of course, I'm not an Arisian.
Who said anything about your actions, mistakes or accidents? I clearly said that everything you are as a person, physically and mentally is determined by genetics. This is a fact. Everyone is different because of it, not even twins are the same. That has nothing to do with your actions. Your actions, inaction, mistakes, etc are all because of decisions you made or consequences that happened, which in many cases, are outside of your control. Does how your brain is wired and operates, influence your actions?
YES, and so does your upbringing. Does genetics determine how your brain reacts to negative or positive upbringing? YES
Genetics is a very broad term, but not everyone's DNA is the same. This is what makes you different. This is what determines how you will look like physically. It will make you biased to certain behaviors, temperaments and personalities, due to the way your brain was wired and the physical parts were made. Everyone's brain is made different.
So, it is true, that everything you are now, was truly determined before you were even born. This includes genetics and epigenetics. All of this happened before your mother gave birth to you.
The same applies to other animals and pretty much every single living organism on this planet.
I think the OP is confused. He is talking about pure SCIENCE, so why put this under PHILOSOPHY?
The bolded is clearly an incorrect statement (or not what he meant to say). Probably just a young person who learned a little something and wanted to try a post. But their is little truth to it beyond things like height.
OP ditch this mentality of helplessness and get busy developing who you want to be. People obsessed with genetics historically use it for contempt of others.
OP seems unaware that it has been shown that changes in behavior patterns can lead to structural brain changes over time.
For example, in alcoholics, the structure of the brain changes with respect to that addiction.
Similarly, choices or influences made early in life can lead to differing patterns of brain development during maturation.
So no, everything you are physically (meaning the physical structure of your brain) was not determined by genetics. Environment and behaviors play a factor.
Question(s): What was her bio mom like when she reunited with her? Was she still flawed (as a mother)?
She was/is still very flawed. Had had three more children while still unmarried, on welfare, and on meth. (Btw, my daughter now has custody of one of her mother's kids, and she is doing very well with him.)
So self determination means nothing? This world is filled with mistakes and accidents. People are resigned to submit to the fallacy that the world is predetermined?
I don't think self determination means nothing, I just think it's overrated. I think that nature trumps nurture overall. I think that the most you can be certain of as a parent or spouse is that you should "do no harm" and embellish that very selectively, because time and energy are limited and you can't approach others with expectations because they are independent actors who have their own freedom of choice.
To me, the connection between intention / efforts and outcomes has always been flaky at best, precisely BECAUSE the world "is filled with mistakes and accidents" (not to mention Other People). That doesn't mean I don't try to make the world a better place; it just means I have VERY modest expectations.
Everything you are as a person right now. I'm not talking about your choices, lifestyle, decision, hobbies, and all the crap that you do everyday that you think makes you special, etc. I'm talking about YOU. What you are as a human being, physically and mentally. Many people are under the misconception that personality and anything regarding behavior is something ethereal and not physical. You are wrong.
Everything you consider "the inside" is nothing more than a byproduct of your brain, which is made of physical parts and components, which are 100% determined by your genetics. There is very little to nothing you can do to change how your brain is wired and how it operates. Your personality, character, temperament, inhibition or desinhibition, extroversion, introversion, intelligence, talents, etc, are mostly determined by how your brain is made.
It would be very curious for me how Abby and Brittany Hensel would answer your post? If you've never heard of them, they are Conjoined identical twins who share the same body, but have two heads. Each head has a different personality. You can watch a video about them here:
I believe that it was the university of Michigan that did a long term study of identical twins separated at birth and raised by different parents. Even thought their DNA was identical they both had different likes and dislikes as adults.
From what I've read, studies of identical twins raised apart show remarkable similarity. There are differences of course, but such twins turn out to be far more similar to each other in their interests, preferences, life choices, IQ level, etc. than they are to their adoptive siblings.
imo
we are born knowing how to eat sleep poop pee and breath
everything else is learned behavior determined on our environment
(that however, does not mean we CHOOSE our sexuality...I always get this when I state my nurture over nature opinion)
No doubt, as it follows logically from your premise.
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But then, Who is? (& would they admit it, if they were?)
