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Wow, I was just trying to point out that perhaps if you consider all opinions, you would see there is a valid complaint coming from this community. That it is acceptable for us to oppose this freeway, to the extent that our legal rights allow. That includes taking ADOT to court. Many freeway advocates seem incapable of allowing for an opinion that differs from thier own. We don’t have to ‘find any and all’ reasons to oppose it. We can just oppose it for the many reasons given. That’s allowed. Just like you, we are entitled to our own opinions and beliefs.
First of all, no one is claiming to be a traffic engineer. If you read ADOTs own reports, they project that the new freeway will provide commuters from the East Valley to Downtown Phoenix a commute that is 1 minute faster. A 1.6 billion dollar freeway for 1 minute off your commute. Most people I have spoken to that are in favor of the freeway seem to think that the Broadway Curve is going to be smooth sailing once ADOT builds the magical SMF. Even ADOT says that isn’t the case.
Now I didn’t mention anything about a truck bypass. And you are right, there is no proof that would be the case. But it IS a valid concern, so dismissing it is unfair.
Second, yes Maricopa County voters in the 80’s approved a regional freeway system, with proposed placements, based on the information they had at the time.There is a reason these plans are projected with the expectation of updating. Also, consider that many of the people who will be affected now, were not of voting age in the 80’s. The second vote, Proposition 400, approved the sales tax to continue funding transportation projects. Neither vote says ‘you absolutely, positively HAVE to put this freeway on Pecos Road.’ It is not unreasonable to consider other options (including No Build) based on the way it looks there now. In fact, that is what the EIS process is supposed to be doing, considering the impact based on current demographics. Even the EPA (July 2013) has gone on record to say the DEIS did not provide an adequate assessment of the effect the freeway would have on air quality. http://www.epa.gov/region09/nepa/letters/az/south-mountain-freeway-deis.pdf
Third, I never said that ADOT was obligated to purchase my home. I said I wish they would. I can wish whatever I want. The point I was trying to make, was that my concern has nothing to do with the homes they will demolish through eminent domain. I think it’s a shame, but you are correct that those who built there knew they were taking that chance. Instead my concern is that this community will no longer be worth living in once the freeway comes through. I think it’s a sad and an unnecessary waste. I will remind you again, I am allowed to have an opinion on the matter. In fact I will use your own words here to make my point.
‘You live in a large, growing city. You should live with the reasonable anticipation that nothing in the built environment around you will stay the same forever. With the exception of hot summers and sunny weather, I would think anyone who has spent any appreciable time here knows that nothing here stays the same.’
That same opinion should apply both ways. The original plan for this proposed freeway should have allowed the flexibility that things were going to change. And they have, A Lot. That should not be ignored. In fact, the National Environmental Policy Act requires that it not be ignored.
Fourth, I never said that our community’s way of life was more special than anyone else’s. What I said was that we love ours, and are willing to fight for it. Next time someone wants to plant a freeway on top of something you love, I will acknowledge your right to do the same.
Fifth, I disagree that ADOT considered all alternatives. In fact, if you view the fancy videos on their website, you will see that very few alternatives were considered in regards to the Ahwatukee side of their plan. As far as addressing all environmental concerns, I will repeat my earlier point, Even the EPA has gone on record (July 2013) stating the DEIS report did not adequately address the air quality effects. Though they noted some improvements on the FEIS (Dec 2014) the EPA recorded ‘concerns regarding the analysis and discussion provided in the Final EIS regarding possible near roadway health impacts along the proposed new freeway corridor,including impacts to children and sensitive receptors. Additionally, we have continuing concerns with the analysis of the No Action Alternative, as well as impacts to both aquatic resources and wildlife connectivity.’www.epa.gov
Last, It is my opinion that ADOT did not follow the law in regards to the FEIS. I was specifically referring to what is required by NEPA. https://ceq.doe.gov/welcome.html
NEPA is not supposed to allow for a predetermined route for a freeway. It is supposed to be route proposal with alternatives, Environmental Studies, then route selection. As has been pointed out many times, this route was selected 30 years ago.The Environmental studies were just finalized in 2015. Those environmental studies were declared inadequate by the EPA. Yet they still got federal approval….
Last edited by 1ahwatukeemom; 06-23-2015 at 12:30 AM..
Reason: text
People act like it's going to go right between Ray and Chandler and then up 24th. That'd be different. But it's going along the southern edge which is bordered by barren Native American land. No one is going to see or hear a freeway unless they're backed up to it (and the ones being Eminent Domain-ed). I'm sure not going to notice it at 44th and Ray. And it's not like there is anything going on over here that is going to make people get off the freeway in masses as they pass BY (note: not through) Ahwatukee.
Wow, I was just trying to point out that perhaps if you consider all opinions, you would see there is a valid complaint coming from this community. That it is acceptable for us to oppose this freeway, to the extent that our legal rights allow. That includes taking ADOT to court. Many freeway advocates seem incapable of allowing for an opinion that differs from thier own. We don’t have to ‘find any and all’ reasons to oppose it. We can just oppose it for the many reasons given. That’s allowed. Just like you, we are entitled to our own opinions and beliefs.
First of all, no one is claiming to be a traffic engineer. If you read ADOTs own reports, they project that the new freeway will provide commuters from the East Valley to Downtown Phoenix a commute that is 1 minute faster. A 1.6 billion dollar freeway for 1 minute off your commute. Most people I have spoken to that are in favor of the freeway seem to think that the Broadway Curve is going to be smooth sailing once ADOT builds the magical SMF. Even ADOT says that isn’t the case.
Now I didn’t mention anything about a truck bypass. And you are right, there is no proof that would be the case. But it IS a valid concern, so dismissing it is unfair.
Second, yes Maricopa County voters in the 80’s approved a regional freeway system, with proposed placements, based on the information they had at the time.There is a reason these plans are projected with the expectation of updating. Also, consider that many of the people who will be affected now, were not of voting age in the 80’s. The second vote, Proposition 400, approved the sales tax to continue funding transportation projects. Neither vote says ‘you absolutely, positively HAVE to put this freeway on Pecos Road.’ It is not unreasonable to consider other options (including No Build) based on the way it looks there now. In fact, that is what the EIS process is supposed to be doing, considering the impact based on current demographics. Even the EPA (July 2013) has gone on record to say the DEIS did not provide an adequate assessment of the effect the freeway would have on air quality. http://www.epa.gov/region09/nepa/letters/az/south-mountain-freeway-deis.pdf
Third, I never said that ADOT was obligated to purchase my home. I said I wish they would. I can wish whatever I want. The point I was trying to make, was that my concern has nothing to do with the homes they will demolish through eminent domain. I think it’s a shame, but you are correct that those who built there knew they were taking that chance. Instead my concern is that this community will no longer be worth living in once the freeway comes through. I think it’s a sad and an unnecessary waste. I will remind you again, I am allowed to have an opinion on the matter. In fact I will use your own words here to make my point.
‘You live in a large, growing city. You should live with the reasonable anticipation that nothing in the built environment around you will stay the same forever. With the exception of hot summers and sunny weather, I would think anyone who has spent any appreciable time here knows that nothing here stays the same.’
That same opinion should apply both ways. The original plan for this proposed freeway should have allowed the flexibility that things were going to change. And they have, A Lot. That should not be ignored. In fact, the National Environmental Policy Act requires that it not be ignored.
Fourth, I never said that our community’s way of life was more special than anyone else’s. What I said was that we love ours, and are willing to fight for it. Next time someone wants to plant a freeway on top of something you love, I will acknowledge your right to do the same.
Fifth, I disagree that ADOT considered all alternatives. In fact, if you view the fancy videos on their website, you will see that very few alternatives were considered in regards to the Ahwatukee side of their plan. As far as addressing all environmental concerns, I will repeat my earlier point, Even the EPA has gone on record (July 2013) stating the DEIS report did not adequately address the air quality effects. Though they noted some improvements on the FEIS (Dec 2014) the EPA recorded ‘concerns regarding the analysis and discussion provided in the Final EIS regarding possible near roadway health impacts along the proposed new freeway corridor,including impacts to children and sensitive receptors. Additionally, we have continuing concerns with the analysis of the No Action Alternative, as well as impacts to both aquatic resources and wildlife connectivity.’www.epa.gov
Last, It is my opinion that ADOT did not follow the law in regards to the FEIS. I was specifically referring to what is required by NEPA. https://ceq.doe.gov/welcome.html
NEPA is not supposed to allow for a predetermined route for a freeway. It is supposed to be route proposal with alternatives, Environmental Studies, then route selection. As has been pointed out many times, this route was selected 30 years ago.The Environmental studies were just finalized in 2015. Those environmental studies were declared inadequate by the EPA. Yet they still got federal approval….
Not reading all of that but you are gonna lose this battle. I've known about the planned freeway for YEARS, even going back to the late 1990's when I lived in Ahwatukee. And I warned people on here several years ago that were considering Ahwatukee that this freeway was going to go in. It's going in no matter how hard you fight.
Everyone's mentioning the already-existing I-8/AZ-85 truck bypass. That's fine and dandy for truck traffic between California and other parts further along I-10. What everyone's failing to mention is that the West Valley is home to one of the largest inland ports in the region. The warehouses from Laveen to Buckeye are a major inland port for the southwest, where goods are transferred, and routed across the region. It's expected to continually grow.
With the Phoenix area rapidly growing in population, and people inclined to buy in farther out areas (seeking lower-priced housing options), the I-10 around downtown is going to become even worse of a bottle neck.
Currently, it's the only viable route for traffic wishing to cross the Valley. That's anything from someone on a roadtrip to LA, a local doing a cross-valley commute, or a commercial vehicle headed to the inland port. I-10 is already a parking lot, in both directions, and it's getting wrose year-by-year. A South Mountain Bypass would aleviate some of the traffic attempting to cross the downtown area. This, in effect, reduces congestion around the existing-Awatukee exits, as well as reducing congestion around other parts of the Valley freeways.
To the comments regarding Sprawl: Where along the route would they develope? You've got a state park on the North and East borders, and an Indian Reservation to the South and West. If anything, local businesses in Awatukee will see growth. Property values in Awatukee will go up (as it will be a viable location for people wanting to commute to the West Valley), and Laveen will see some much needed in-fill. As another poster mentioned, the Valley already stretches out to Buckeye, and development "skipped" over Laveen. Isn't in-fill the anti-thesis to sprawl? If you want to complain about a project encouraging sprawl, take a drive on the Loop 303. A massive, empty freeway, designed for an area that has yet to be developed.
A small minority of Awatukee is along Pecos Road. Residential areas are already buffered from Pecos Road by a strip of commercially-zoned lots and developments, with only a few exceptions. As well, if other Valley Freeways are any indication, the 202 SMF will not have a heavy impact on noise and pollution in the area. The freeways around Phoenix are built with rubberized asphalt to reduce tire noise (these days, the largest noise eminating from a freeway). Large walls encase the freeway, and block the remaining noise. As another poster mentioned, modern vehicles have more stringent emissions regulations.
Lastly, the freeway will, unfortunately, have to pass through a small stretch of South Mountain Park on the west end -- on the other side of the mountain range from Awatukee. If that's a crime, what does that make the 51 (which cuts straight through the Phoenix Mountain Preserves)?
What everyone's failing to mention is that the West Valley is home to one of the largest inland ports in the region. The warehouses from Laveen to Buckeye are a major inland port for the southwest, where goods are transferred, and routed across the region. It's expected to continually grow.
Lastly, the freeway will, unfortunately, have to pass through a small stretch of South Mountain Park on the west end -- on the other side of the mountain range from Awatukee. If that's a crime, what does that make the 51 (which cuts straight through the Phoenix Mountain Preserves)?
Just to expand on this...
Will anything be built through South Mountain Park/Preserve?
Federal restrictions prohibit intrusion of a federal project such as the proposed freeway into a park like South Mountain Park/Preserve, unless it can be shown that there is no feasible and prudent alternative to avoid such an intrusion. As documented in the Environmental Impact Statement, no feasible and prudent alternative(s) could be identified to avoid impacts on the park. Approximately one mile of the freeway will pass through the southwestern edge of the park. The amount of land in the park that will be affected by the freeway is 31.3 acres, which is less than 0.2 percent of the entire park.
I live within hearing distance of the last part of the east 101 Price Freeway to be built, which I've mentioned upthread. Has it affected my quality of life? No, not one bit, except in a positive way. When homes in my area are for sale, one of the selling points that works is the proximity to the 101. Freeways are not all evil.
People act like it's going to go right between Ray and Chandler and then up 24th. That'd be different. But it's going along the southern edge which is bordered by barren Native American land. No one is going to see or hear a freeway unless they're backed up to it (and the ones being Eminent Domain-ed). I'm sure not going to notice it at 44th and Ray. And it's not like there is anything going on over here that is going to make people get off the freeway in masses as they pass BY (note: not through) Ahwatukee.
So basically what you are saying is that you don't mind it, since it's not close enough to your house for it to bother you. What if it were going between Ray and Chandler? Then would it be a problem? Sounds ridiculous to even consider, except ADOT did. Chandler Blvd was the 'reasonable alternative' offered.
A small minority of Awatukee is along Pecos Road. Residential areas are already buffered from Pecos Road by a strip of commercially-zoned lots and developments, with only a few exceptions.
From 40th street go west on Pecos to 27th Ave. All of that is residential housing, not really a 'small minority.' And I'm wondering where the strip of commercially-zoned lots is? With the exception of a couple of churches, the north side of Pecos is backed up by houses. Lots and lots of houses. And an Elementary School. The only commercial business is the Storage facility on the South side of Pecos which is on Reservation land.
Wow, I was just trying to point out that perhaps if you consider all opinions, you would see there is a valid complaint coming from this community. That it is acceptable for us to oppose this freeway, to the extent that our legal rights allow. That includes taking ADOT to court. Many freeway advocates seem incapable of allowing for an opinion that differs from thier own. We don’t have to ‘find any and all’ reasons to oppose it. We can just oppose it for the many reasons given. That’s allowed. Just like you, we are entitled to our own opinions and beliefs.
First of all, no one is claiming to be a traffic engineer. If you read ADOTs own reports, they project that the new freeway will provide commuters from the East Valley to Downtown Phoenix a commute that is 1 minute faster. A 1.6 billion dollar freeway for 1 minute off your commute. Most people I have spoken to that are in favor of the freeway seem to think that the Broadway Curve is going to be smooth sailing once ADOT builds the magical SMF. Even ADOT says that isn’t the case.
Now I didn’t mention anything about a truck bypass. And you are right, there is no proof that would be the case. But it IS a valid concern, so dismissing it is unfair.
Second, yes Maricopa County voters in the 80’s approved a regional freeway system, with proposed placements, based on the information they had at the time.There is a reason these plans are projected with the expectation of updating. Also, consider that many of the people who will be affected now, were not of voting age in the 80’s. The second vote, Proposition 400, approved the sales tax to continue funding transportation projects. Neither vote says ‘you absolutely, positively HAVE to put this freeway on Pecos Road.’ It is not unreasonable to consider other options (including No Build) based on the way it looks there now. In fact, that is what the EIS process is supposed to be doing, considering the impact based on current demographics. Even the EPA (July 2013) has gone on record to say the DEIS did not provide an adequate assessment of the effect the freeway would have on air quality. http://www.epa.gov/region09/nepa/letters/az/south-mountain-freeway-deis.pdf
Third, I never said that ADOT was obligated to purchase my home. I said I wish they would. I can wish whatever I want. The point I was trying to make, was that my concern has nothing to do with the homes they will demolish through eminent domain. I think it’s a shame, but you are correct that those who built there knew they were taking that chance. Instead my concern is that this community will no longer be worth living in once the freeway comes through. I think it’s a sad and an unnecessary waste. I will remind you again, I am allowed to have an opinion on the matter. In fact I will use your own words here to make my point.
‘You live in a large, growing city. You should live with the reasonable anticipation that nothing in the built environment around you will stay the same forever. With the exception of hot summers and sunny weather, I would think anyone who has spent any appreciable time here knows that nothing here stays the same.’
That same opinion should apply both ways. The original plan for this proposed freeway should have allowed the flexibility that things were going to change. And they have, A Lot. That should not be ignored. In fact, the National Environmental Policy Act requires that it not be ignored.
Fourth, I never said that our community’s way of life was more special than anyone else’s. What I said was that we love ours, and are willing to fight for it. Next time someone wants to plant a freeway on top of something you love, I will acknowledge your right to do the same.
Fifth, I disagree that ADOT considered all alternatives. In fact, if you view the fancy videos on their website, you will see that very few alternatives were considered in regards to the Ahwatukee side of their plan. As far as addressing all environmental concerns, I will repeat my earlier point, Even the EPA has gone on record (July 2013) stating the DEIS report did not adequately address the air quality effects. Though they noted some improvements on the FEIS (Dec 2014) the EPA recorded ‘concerns regarding the analysis and discussion provided in the Final EIS regarding possible near roadway health impacts along the proposed new freeway corridor,including impacts to children and sensitive receptors. Additionally, we have continuing concerns with the analysis of the No Action Alternative, as well as impacts to both aquatic resources and wildlife connectivity.’www.epa.gov
Last, It is my opinion that ADOT did not follow the law in regards to the FEIS. I was specifically referring to what is required by NEPA. https://ceq.doe.gov/welcome.html
NEPA is not supposed to allow for a predetermined route for a freeway. It is supposed to be route proposal with alternatives, Environmental Studies, then route selection. As has been pointed out many times, this route was selected 30 years ago.The Environmental studies were just finalized in 2015. Those environmental studies were declared inadequate by the EPA. Yet they still got federal approval….
Freeway opponents absolutely have a right to express their own opinion. I don't think anyone is trying to take that right away from you. It's just that you can't say that people aren't allowing you to have an opinion just because the route (pun intended) ADOT is going defies your opinion on the project. I am very capable of listening to opinions beside my own. Whether or not I agree with it is a whole different story. Frankly, the "facts" that you provided for your opposition of the freeway are not "facts." It's propaganda that the anti-freeway crowd wants all to believe to build up opposition for this freeway. It's not based on truth as much as it is emotion and desperation.
You claim that ADOT shows that commute times to downtown for those in Ahwatukee and in the East Valley will only decrease by one minute during rush hour. Okay. Supposing that's true, how much time will be saved from someone commuting from Avondale to south Gilbert or a traveler who is doing the reverse? What about someone who lives in Maricopa who wants to go to a Cardinals game? You see, it's not all about people who live in the East Valley. The purpose of the freeway is to enhance regional mobility. That doesn't necessarily translate to "ensure travel times of Ahwatukee residents to DT Phoenix decrease substantially." It's not about one group or another. It is supposed to benefit us all. Say an Ahwatukee resident wants to go LA and there is a bad crash on the I-10 westbound at the Broadway Curve. This will serve a benefit to that residents and everyone else who can now circumvent that crash on another high speed freeway. It would help those who travel local streets that would otherwise be packed in such an event. It's about regional mobility, not just Ahwatukee.
Labeling this freeway a truck bypass is not a valid argument. The purpose of this freeway is not to solely allow trucks to go around downtown Phoenix. As the EIS states I-8 to SR 85 will remain the designated Phoenix truck bypass. So to claim that this will become a truck bypass is disingenuous. There will be trucks who utilize the freeway to get to the warehousing areas of the SW Valley. Yes. But to act like this will be the equivalent of the 710 Freeway that provides direct access to the Port of Long Beach is just false.
Maricopa County voters approved the regional freeway system, including this freeway, once in 1985 and again in 2004. The fact that it was approved just 11 years ago. So public perception has not changed. The majority still want this freeway. It was approved by voters twice. So to act as though ADOT is proceeding based off of a 30 year old poll results is false. It was approved just 11 years ago.
The 1985 and 2004 vote came with a rough sketch of where these freeways might go. Pecos Road is a natural extension of the existing 202 system. It doesn't really make sense for the freeway to continue anywhere else. It's not really like there's an abundant amount of land between South Mountain and the Gila River Indian Community. As a result, alignments are going to be limited. Would you prefer that this run along Chandler Boulevard and really split Ahwatukee in two? Would you prefer the freeway to wind up and through South Mountain? The no-build alternative was considered. Look at the EIS. It was evaluated along with a host of other alternatives, including transit. ADOT tried to bargain with Gila River to put the freeway on their land. The people voted it down. ADOT has compromised with Ahwatukee residents by even making this an 8-lane freeway as opposed to a 10-lane freeway. Still, people complain that alternatives weren't considered. The only alternative anti-freeway people would accept would be the no-build alternative. ADOT deemed that unacceptable, so it is moving forward. The EPA tends not to agree with FHWA on freeway expansion. That's nothing new. ADOT and FHWA's models show that this freeway will not have a dire effect on air quality. Again, it's in the EIS.
If your concern is that the community won't be worth living in because of a freeway on its southern border, you probably shouldn't have located there in the first place. You knew the freeway was a possibility the entire time you've lived there. You chose to move there anyway. Why, again, should the project be canceled because of your decision making? It makes no sense. It sounds selfish. Everyone's mobility should have to suffer because a handful people made poor decisions and/or have irrational fears about the effects of an 8 lane freeway, which will replace an existing 4-6 lane road. You are allowed to have an opinion and I am allowed to challenge it when it is stated as fact.
Things in the Valley have changed. There is now even more of a need for this freeway than there was in 1985. Planners here have always done a pretty good job of anticipating where growth was going to occur. The growth that they knew would occur has occurred and there is still a need for a freeway. NEPA was not ignored. It was clearly followed.
It's fine for you to vote for "your way of life." But understand that it looks selfish from an outsider's perspective to try to stop a project that you are so misinformed about. To claim that your "way of life" will be destroyed by a freeway looks silly. The freeway is going to replace Pecos Road. Is there something about Pecos Road that you're attached to?
NEPA allows for a preferred alternative. NEPA just requires evidence that other alternatives were adequately considered. They were. The freeway is not going on tribal land, so down Pecos it goes. The route was preferred 30 years ago and it is still preferred to this day. With as many studies as ADOT has done, they probably have a fairly good grasp on the viability of this freeway. The first EIS on the freeway was completed over 15 years ago. To act as if ADOT just got a handle on the environmental impacts from the proposed freeway corridor is not an honest stance.
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