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I lived in Tucson for 10 years, and did visit Phoenix a few times.
Some have said it's the natives who gripe about wasting water via unnecessary grass. I found it to be the opposite when I lived there. It seemed to be that the natives in Tucson accepted the desert landscaping, while the transplants, many of them from Illinois (that always puzzled me, why are so many from Illinois, I used to ask), were the ones griping about the "boring" or "ugly" desert landscaping.
My point of view--I felt then, and still do, that it's ridiculous to move to the desert and then gripe about the lack of trees and greenery. That's as asinine as moving to Alaska and griping about the lack of palm trees, or moving to Florida and griping about the lack of icebergs. It just makes no logical sense.
Along the same lines, you had people griping that it didn't rain enough--to me, that was one of the best things about Tucson (and Phoenix is even less rainy as I understand it). When we had excessive rain during the winter of 1998 due to El Nino, people acted as if what it was doing was what it should've been doing all along vs recognizing it for the abnormality which it was. They griped about the lack of snow--hello, you're not in upstate New York. You didn't see me moving to Alaska and griping about the cold winters.
No, when I relocated there many years ago I did so understanding that, to quote that line from The Wizard Of Oz, "you're not in Kansas anymore." I was leaving behind trees and grass (I had lived in eastern NC) to live in the desert and that such would mean a proliferation of cacti (not cactuses, I even got that part right) vs tons of pine trees everywhere, and there would be less rain. That's just what Tucson AZ was--WITHOUT any man-made intervening making it that way. To hear people griping about the lack of pine trees and grass, I was like "you moved to the desert, that's not what's here." (Well maybe up on Mt Lemmon, or in Flagstaff, but not at the base of Tucson.)
To me, swimming pools are different, in that swimming is an activity and one that requires large amounts of water, and heaven knows lots of people have such on their mind when it's 105'F outside. To me, all green grass is about is LOOKS. Otherwise, why are people so big on it having to look perfect all the time, to the point of enacting ordinances requiring others (via HOAs) to have a putting green lawn? Kids don't need a putting green for playing purposes, and the dogs sure don't care. It's all about LOOKS at that point.
Why are people so high on looks vs what's practical with many things? You see the same thing with cars and smartphones, people caring so much what their car LOOKS like what it can actually do and how much money that's taking out of your checking account. Many phone manufacturers (like Samsung with the S6 vs the previous S5) eliminated microSD slots and removable batteries so the phone could be more "seamless" and LOOK prettier. Why does that matter so much (especially when the phone is apt to be in a case anyway)? It's a phone, not a woman in a bikini.
Far be it from me to dictate to someone what their yard is allowed to have on it, but I've always thought this obsession with grass was silly, and especially so in a desert region where you KNOW you're not on the east coast anymore. To me, if you like grass, move where grass is everywhere naturally. If you like lots of rain, move to Seattle. If you like ice and cold, move to Alaska or Montana etc. To do otherwise is just backwards to me.
To me, swimming pools are different, in that swimming is an activity and one that requires large amounts of water, and heaven knows lots of people have such on their mind when it's 105'F outside. To me, all green grass is about is LOOKS. Otherwise, why are people so big on it having to look perfect all the time, to the point of enacting ordinances requiring others (via HOAs) to have a putting green lawn? Kids don't need a putting green for playing purposes, and the dogs sure don't care. It's all about LOOKS at that point.
Grass is partly about the looks (the aesthetics, as I call it), and there's nothing wrong with that. Greenery is naturally more pleasing to look at. Sorry to break it to you, but looks are important in just about every aspect of life. Why do you think attractive people who keep in shape and dress well are generally more admired than those who are overweight, out of shape, and dress like slobs? Why do you think homes that are well maintained and have manicured lawns are more attractive and have higher market value?
Grass is also about the other things I mentioned: it helps reduce the heat factor & the dust factor, and it's much more inviting to play on. Sure, it costs more in the form of higher water bills, but most things which are more expensive are generally worthwhile. You say that dogs don't care about grass? They may not be able to tell you how they feel, but walking a dog on hot pavement, and having a dog be outside in hot gravel is miserable! Most breeds have very tender pads on their feet, and they have been known to burn easily. Grass lawns that are maintained well easily combat that problem.
I lived in Tucson for 10 years, and did visit Phoenix a few times.
Some have said it's the natives who gripe about wasting water via unnecessary grass. I found it to be the opposite when I lived there. It seemed to be that the natives in Tucson accepted the desert landscaping, while the transplants, many of them from Illinois (that always puzzled me, why are so many from Illinois, I used to ask), were the ones griping about the "boring" or "ugly" desert landscaping.
My point of view--I felt then, and still do, that it's ridiculous to move to the desert and then gripe about the lack of trees and greenery. That's as asinine as moving to Alaska and griping about the lack of palm trees, or moving to Florida and griping about the lack of icebergs. It just makes no logical sense.
Along the same lines, you had people griping that it didn't rain enough--to me, that was one of the best things about Tucson (and Phoenix is even less rainy as I understand it). When we had excessive rain during the winter of 1998 due to El Nino, people acted as if what it was doing was what it should've been doing all along vs recognizing it for the abnormality which it was. They griped about the lack of snow--hello, you're not in upstate New York. You didn't see me moving to Alaska and griping about the cold winters.
No, when I relocated there many years ago I did so understanding that, to quote that line from The Wizard Of Oz, "you're not in Kansas anymore." I was leaving behind trees and grass (I had lived in eastern NC) to live in the desert and that such would mean a proliferation of cacti (not cactuses, I even got that part right) vs tons of pine trees everywhere, and there would be less rain. That's just what Tucson AZ was--WITHOUT any man-made intervening making it that way. To hear people griping about the lack of pine trees and grass, I was like "you moved to the desert, that's not what's here." (Well maybe up on Mt Lemmon, or in Flagstaff, but not at the base of Tucson.)
To me, swimming pools are different, in that swimming is an activity and one that requires large amounts of water, and heaven knows lots of people have such on their mind when it's 105'F outside. To me, all green grass is about is LOOKS. Otherwise, why are people so big on it having to look perfect all the time, to the point of enacting ordinances requiring others (via HOAs) to have a putting green lawn? Kids don't need a putting green for playing purposes, and the dogs sure don't care. It's all about LOOKS at that point.
Why are people so high on looks vs what's practical with many things? You see the same thing with cars and smartphones, people caring so much what their car LOOKS like what it can actually do and how much money that's taking out of your checking account. Many phone manufacturers (like Samsung with the S6 vs the previous S5) eliminated microSD slots and removable batteries so the phone could be more "seamless" and LOOK prettier. Why does that matter so much (especially when the phone is apt to be in a case anyway)? It's a phone, not a woman in a bikini.
Far be it from me to dictate to someone what their yard is allowed to have on it, but I've always thought this obsession with grass was silly, and especially so in a desert region where you KNOW you're not on the east coast anymore. To me, if you like grass, move where grass is everywhere naturally. If you like lots of rain, move to Seattle. If you like ice and cold, move to Alaska or Montana etc. To do otherwise is just backwards to me.
Most of Tucson was built on virgin Sonoran desert at a higher elevation than Phoenix. Tucson also has much less water historically and presently making lawns cost prohibitive (except Winterhaven). Until CAP, Tucson was running risks of depleting aquifers to unsustainable levels and even led to significant ground subsistence despite Tucson being one of the most water efficient cities in the entire country in terms of water used/person.
The look of Tucson vs. Phoenix is a valuable history lesson between Mining and Agriculture presence in Arizona. It's also a lesson in welcoming industry or preserving history.
Phoenix has a long history of Agriculture, there is a lapse in what Phoenix is naturally because we engineered it to what it is now. The SRV was a riparian habitat w/ Canals dug thousands of years ago to spread the water even further across the very fertile valley. In turn, Phoenix does not have the virgin desert beauty that Tucson does, it instead either has grass, a product of an era where water was of no concern at all, or Xeriscape which looks alright done right. In order to create the desert beauty for most of Phoenix requires landscaping (irrigation lines and engineering), since most of our population is proudly not from around here we get this Pseudo-Desert Xeriscaping consisting of misc. bushes and palm tress on pink gravel. That issue arises because most of the development takes place on former fields. The desert flora and fauna are long gone and replaced by non-native weeds and whatever is decided to be planted in its place. Its important that a desert oasis isn't the result of rain which is a common contention its about presence of water. Phoenix had that.
The proper measure of water sustainability is water used/person. Phoenix DOES still have the water to create the oasis that it is (and even was naturally before we engineered dams for water rationing to Ranchers and Farmers. But Phoenix could thrive using drought tolerant trees (which it does primarily) and increasing density around green space. It would make most sense to have a central area as it is and the fringes gravel (as they have less water right).
Nice history less "JGMotorsport64," I appreciate it.
I read the article briefly, and what I read is that Phoenix many years ago took on the grass look to attract people who would be repulsed by the desert scenery. That is exactly my main point--people being close-minded in the aspect of INSISTING that it MUST be grass or else. That's silly. As I said, I moved there KNOWING I'd be encountering cacti and the like. I had lived in NC my entire life, everything there was different and I knew and accepted that going in. That to me is how it should be. You don't move to the desert and then gripe that it's not like the east coast. That's just wrong, and as I read the article that messed up thinking is exactly where Phoenix's green tradition comes from.
I stand by my point that I think looks are overrated with such matters and to prioritize them so highly is just silly to me. For one they're subjective. I myself think the desert looks just beautiful just as it is. Someone else feels otherwise. That's fine, but that's the problem with looks--you upset things which are PRACTICAL and MEASURABLE for something vague, subjective and which can't be quantified. With the other things, it's silly to care so much about, say, having an SUV vs a minivan simply because you think a minivan looks "dorky" even if the minivan does the job you need just fine. It's silly to have smartphones lose actual functionality so it can have a "seamless" look.
In the same way, it's silly to me for one to waste all of that water because you THINK grass is prettier, especially when you're in the freaking desert already.
Things like being attractive yourself, well like I said I personally understand looks mattering a lot if it's, say, a woman in a bathing suit or a spaghetti-strapped dress. Who CAN'T relate to that? Further, it's better to not be overweight, you're healthier. A clean house--you don't have rodent infestation and germs etc. Looks are a FACTOR, I don't deny that.
But to be so hung up on grass--that's silly to me, especially in a DESERT. If you live on the east coast, there's grass everywhere. You don't have to water the fool out of it, it's EVERYWHERE without you having to do much of anything. Why are you in the desert to start with if grass matters so much to you?
As an aside, it's beside the point, but we have (as do several of our neighbors) a yard in an area where grass is normal, but this yard--NATURALLY SO--has almost no grass. It's just flat clay and dirt. Guess what--our kids play on it just fine, and compared to grass, it's not so much work. To each his/her own, but I prefer to do FUN things with my time, not have to spend my weekends pruning hedges and dealing with cantankerous hard-to-crank lawnmowers so as to make the lawn look like a putting green. (It makes no sense to me all the work you have to do to make a lawnmower just CRANK EASILY, when 15 year old cars just fire right up without having to be so perfectly done right.)
No, thank you. I want my yards EASY. Heck, I don't even rake the leaves in the winter--that's work, my work is at my job, not at home if I can help it. I want my spare time to be spent doing FUN things which matter.
I took a course in Arizona geography last year and the high level story is that the Colorado River Compact, enacted in 1922, allocates water in the Colorado. It severely (some say intentionally) over-estimated the average annual flow of the river and allocated the water to 7 states and Mexico based on those faulty assumptions. The lower part of the river was divided among Arizona, Nevada and California. Arizona spent years fighting the compact and associated agreements in court, in Congress (and with troops!) but finally agreed in 1944. Water rights are based on seniority and as Arizona was last to sign, they are last in line. It's admittedly more complicated than that, but those are the basics.
pbenjamin, KPBS 'Horizon' had a segment on their show recently that discussed the Arizona water rights issues. A lot of positive changes for AZ happened when the CAP construction agreement was signed ( believe in 1972.) I'd recommend everyone to see the show. For that matter, just read on Wikipedia about the Central Arizona Project.
Basically, since AZ is not using are "full capacity" at the moment, we are agreeing to sell the excess water to So. CA and NV until they figure out their own strategies. One thing I didn't know is that the Native American tribes get a GOOD share of the CAP water. That makes me understand how they can lease their land to farmers like they do.
As I've posted before, lawns and grass look good in Phoenix IMO. Maybe not so much in Tucson, because Tucson has more of a frontier/wester town look to it.
Problem is, many people don't know how to take care of their lawns here, especially their summer lawns (tif bermuda.) I have a theory on is: Many people who move here have never had bermuda grass before, so they don't know that you take care of it differently than blue grass like back in Michigan for example. Tif needs to be mowed often, low, fertilized lightly and frequently, and dethatched regularly.
I think So. Californians who move here understand this, but people from north or the midwest don't get it.
I lived in Tucson for 10 years, and did visit Phoenix a few times.
Some have said it's the natives who gripe about wasting water via unnecessary grass. I found it to be the opposite when I lived there. It seemed to be that the natives in Tucson accepted the desert landscaping, while the transplants, many of them from Illinois (that always puzzled me, why are so many from Illinois, I used to ask), were the ones griping about the "boring" or "ugly" desert landscaping.
My point of view--I felt then, and still do, that it's ridiculous to move to the desert and then gripe about the lack of trees and greenery. That's as asinine as moving to Alaska and griping about the lack of palm trees, or moving to Florida and griping about the lack of icebergs. It just makes no logical sense.
Along the same lines, you had people griping that it didn't rain enough--to me, that was one of the best things about Tucson (and Phoenix is even less rainy as I understand it). When we had excessive rain during the winter of 1998 due to El Nino, people acted as if what it was doing was what it should've been doing all along vs recognizing it for the abnormality which it was. They griped about the lack of snow--hello, you're not in upstate New York. You didn't see me moving to Alaska and griping about the cold winters.
No, when I relocated there many years ago I did so understanding that, to quote that line from The Wizard Of Oz, "you're not in Kansas anymore." I was leaving behind trees and grass (I had lived in eastern NC) to live in the desert and that such would mean a proliferation of cacti (not cactuses, I even got that part right) vs tons of pine trees everywhere, and there would be less rain. That's just what Tucson AZ was--WITHOUT any man-made intervening making it that way. To hear people griping about the lack of pine trees and grass, I was like "you moved to the desert, that's not what's here." (Well maybe up on Mt Lemmon, or in Flagstaff, but not at the base of Tucson.)
To me, swimming pools are different, in that swimming is an activity and one that requires large amounts of water, and heaven knows lots of people have such on their mind when it's 105'F outside. To me, all green grass is about is LOOKS. Otherwise, why are people so big on it having to look perfect all the time, to the point of enacting ordinances requiring others (via HOAs) to have a putting green lawn? Kids don't need a putting green for playing purposes, and the dogs sure don't care. It's all about LOOKS at that point.
Why are people so high on looks vs what's practical with many things? You see the same thing with cars and smartphones, people caring so much what their car LOOKS like what it can actually do and how much money that's taking out of your checking account. Many phone manufacturers (like Samsung with the S6 vs the previous S5) eliminated microSD slots and removable batteries so the phone could be more "seamless" and LOOK prettier. Why does that matter so much (especially when the phone is apt to be in a case anyway)? It's a phone, not a woman in a bikini.
Far be it from me to dictate to someone what their yard is allowed to have on it, but I've always thought this obsession with grass was silly, and especially so in a desert region where you KNOW you're not on the east coast anymore. To me, if you like grass, move where grass is everywhere naturally. If you like lots of rain, move to Seattle. If you like ice and cold, move to Alaska or Montana etc. To do otherwise is just backwards to me.
Agree with your points, but I would go even farther and say that the attraction people have to green turf monoculture is learned rather than natural. There are a lot of beautiful gardens that use an abundance of water but they contain lots of flowers, shrubs, and various plants that are chosen for their ornamental beauty. A well done xeriscape has a similar variety, as does the Sonoran upland desert environment (you can't get more attarctive then that IMO). I truly believe that you need to have variety to have an attractive landscape (whether wet, dry, or somewhere in between).
Agree with your points, but I would go even farther and say that the attraction people have to green turf monoculture is learned rather than natural. There are a lot of beautiful gardens that use an abundance of water but they contain lots of flowers, shrubs, and various plants that are chosen for their ornamental beauty. A well done xeriscape has a similar variety, as does the Sonoran upland desert environment (you can't get more attarctive then that IMO). I truly believe that you need to have variety to have an attractive landscape (whether wet, dry, or somewhere in between).
Excellent points. Having grown up on almost 1 acre of land that was mostly lawn, I found it very boring frankly though I'm probably in the minority with this view as I agree with your point that most people tend to like what they like because they grew up with it/are used to it. What I found most interesting were the trees/flowers/shrubs. Especially here in the valley, we have access to a crazy amount of variety of plants that thrive here and with a little effort, one can make a great looking landscape with no lawn. And still make it look green if one wants with lots of shrubs, ground cover plants, close spacing/clumping varieties of plants, etc.
In my personal view, crushed stone yards get a bad rap because many people just stick a few random shrubs in their yards, maybe a tree or 2, and that's it. I would agree.....that's not very attractive to me. And the same for just an expanse of green lawn with the same tree/a few random shrubs placed without much thought. Adding some elevation changes, a few rocks, and various plants planted in ways they grow in nature, I think that goes a long way in making an attractive landscape. And far more interesting than expanses of crushed stone or grass.
Thats your own opinion. I find the brown landscapes of AZ far more appealing than the green of Georgia. And if you think green is more pleasing to look at, why in the flying gnat ballsack do you choose to live in Phoenix (one of the least-green cities in the USA)?
Weird you haven't heard about the hottest communities in the SE Valley, maybe because you're a newbie that is obsessed with desert and scorpions
Sorry, I dont really care for the SE valley too much, so sue me I guess?!
I spend 95% of my time in Scottsdale, Fountain Hills, and Carefree, where it actually looks like the desert, and not some sprawling, generic suburb. Thats just what I prefer, and my opinion. I like the look of Scottsdale (even down to the fact they dont allow billboards) and its surrounds.
And I might be a "newbie" here in the Valley, only having lived here a few years, but Ive vacationed here every year for well over a decade. And yes, I do find scorpions intriguing. Im an amateur entomologist, and have a weird infatuation with venomous creatures. Your point?
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