Phoenix, the most unaffordable "affordable" place to live (high crime, hotel)

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by asufan

I think you're selling them way short if they own the biz. My HVAC guy has 3 employees and his wife working for him and lives in a $1.5m house. They should be able to clear at least $5k a week.

Having said that, my kids are going to college.

But..... That's not a "career job"! People are not entering the trades "bEcUASE tHeY DOn'T wANt tO WoRK wItH theIR HAnDs!" a.k.a. lazy and stupid.

[jwiley]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

But..... That's not a "career job"! People are not entering the trades "bEcUASE tHeY DOn'T wANt tO WoRK wItH theIR HAnDs!" a.k.a. lazy and stupid.

People are not entering trades because they are indoctrinated from birth that working with their hands and doing physical labor is beneath them and they only good careers are being college educated and working as an engineer/ IT/ med/ law. Try convincing 18 year olds that barely got through high school that blue collar is their best option and you might as well call them worthless. We lost the idea that blue collar work can be good work/pay/ careers somewhere along the line and even those who are more suited to working with their hands hesitate to go into that work as they do not want to be seen as a loser (which does happen when they tell women what they do).

I know guys in their late 20s in the oil field, electricians, HVAC, and many other blue collar fields that make considerably more money every year than most college graduates ever do in their career. Yet until the public recognizes the value and need for these professions kids are going to avoid them until they have no other options.

[bobsell]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

Well, not everyone can be a lifelong dentist

You are comparing apples and roast beef. (beyond apples and oranges)

Sales are only for a certain personality type. In addition, not all sales jobs are well compensated - there are lots of 100% commission jobs that have high turnover. Why? Because not everyone has that personality.

You are wrong. A "sales job" is a career.

The only one that doesn't have a catch-22.

Let's rewind to 2008,

You don't have to rewind that far.

You can rewind to 2020. 45% are unemployed and 41% working Mcjobs. That's 86% hit by the catch-22 that you pretend does not exist.

Class of 2021 says "hold my beer" to those numbers because the 2020 backlog hasn't been cleared.

And let's talk about career changers. If they have the wrong job title in their old job, employers don't count any transferable skills.

Let's not apply your experience back in 2008

This is not about me.

You're yet another person who thinks "someone has an opinion I don't like? Must be something wrong with them!"

That says more about you than me.

Currently (and yes, the tides will change), it's been so easy to get a higher-paying job in comparison to other eras.

This is true for those who have experience.

If one doesn't have experience, they're stuck in the catch-22.

[bobsell]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

But..... That's not a "career job"! People are not entering the trades "bEcUASE tHeY DOn'T wANt tO WoRK wItH theIR HAnDs!" a.k.a. lazy and stupid.

No, they're not entering the trades because apprenticeships have 300 applicants per slot. Can't be licensed in the trades without the apprenticeship.

[bobsell]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

Every single solitary college campus job fair nearly always hires people with zero experience.

And the jobs are either sales jobs or Mcjobs.

Want to be a business analyst? Experience required.

Accountant? Experience required.

Project manager? Experience required.

Auditor? Experience required.

Financial analyst? Experience required.

Cybersecurity analyst? Experience required.

Pen tester? Experience required.

Data scientist? Experience required.

Data analyst? Experience required.

So, where are they supposed to get experience? Mcjobs are not accepted by employers as experience. And if you are a career changer with the "wrong job title" - employers count zero experience from that as well.

Oh wait. You think 100% of people are able to get jobs with zero experience because you deny that the catch-22 exists at all!

Do you think the graduates of Stanford, MIT, and other tier 1 universities only get a job when they have experience?

Ivy leaguers are a different sort.

They have connections to rich people who only care about the school's reputation not about if the person can actually do the job. "You went to Harvard? That's enough. I can stop thinking now. You're hired."

It is more about cronyism than actual ability.

I'm talking about ordinary people who went to school at not-so-highly ranked schools.

In your eyes they don't exist since you're using these extreme examples.

There is no need for me to force feed you more personal examples.

True. I'm not asking for them.

I'm just looking for the employers who don't enforce a catch-22 on entry level career jobs that are not sales or Mcjobs.

Name and location please.

But I won't expect you to actually answer that question. You want me to believe you on 100% blind trust with zero evidence.

Meanwhile, you ignore /r/recruitinghell and all the job search subreddits where people get hit by the catch-22.

You are locked in a 2008-2010 mindset.

Employers are locked in that mindset. I'm here in the real world.

You're locked in a mindset with zero empathy to the thousands of real people who did everything right, tried to get a degree/certificate/certification - and wind up working in jobs that don't require that degree OR they're out of work. You also believe that anyone can get a degree/certification in a useful field and get a job without any experience.

This is 2022. Not 1972.

[DetroitN8V]

I didn’t read the whole thread but the notion that entry level professional jobs don’t exist is nonsense. I love hiring smart kids right out of college. They’re usually hungry, excited to learn and best of all, much cheaper than their seasoned and possible jaded colleagues. I know I’m not alone in that idea.

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by bobsell

And the jobs are either sales jobs or Mcjobs.

Want to be a business analyst? Experience required.

Accountant? Experience required.

Project manager? Experience required.

Auditor? Experience required.

Financial analyst? Experience required.

Cybersecurity analyst? Experience required.

Pen tester? Experience required.

Data scientist? Experience required.

Data analyst? Experience required.

So, where are they supposed to get experience? Mcjobs are not accepted by employers as experience. And if you are a career changer with the "wrong job title" - employers count zero experience from that as well.

Oh wait. You think 100% of people are able to get jobs with zero experience because you deny that the catch-22 exists at all!



Ivy leaguers are a different sort.

They have connections to rich people who only care about the school's reputation not about if the person can actually do the job. "You went to Harvard? That's enough. I can stop thinking now. You're hired."

It is more about cronyism than actual ability.

I'm talking about ordinary people who went to school at not-so-highly ranked schools.

In your eyes they don't exist since you're using these extreme examples.



True. I'm not asking for them.

I'm just looking for the employers who don't enforce a catch-22 on entry level career jobs that are not sales or Mcjobs.

Name and location please.

But I won't expect you to actually answer that question. You want me to believe you on 100% blind trust with zero evidence.

Meanwhile, you ignore /r/recruitinghell and all the job search subreddits where people get hit by the catch-22.



Employers are locked in that mindset. I'm here in the real world.

You're locked in a mindset with zero empathy to the thousands of real people who did everything right, tried to get a degree/certificate/certification - and wind up working in jobs that don't require that degree OR they're out of work. You also believe that anyone can get a degree/certification in a useful field and get a job without any experience.

This is 2022. Not 1972.

There are two sides to the spectrum. On one hand, there are people that can be labeled "bleeding heart liberals". You know, NOTHING is ever someone's fault. If you are dealt a bad hand, well, how can you expect someone to crawl out of that deep and terrible hole. That's you.

On the other spectrum, there are the "heartless conservatives". The people that can point to their outlier example and assume correlations are meaningless examples of reality. AND, both camps are sooooooooooooooooooooo far off base. Try being balanced. As in, the truth is in between.

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by DetroitN8V

I didn’t read the whole thread but the notion that entry level professional jobs don’t exist is nonsense. I love hiring smart kids right out of college. They’re usually hungry, excited to learn and best of all, much cheaper than their seasoned and possible jaded colleagues. I know I’m not alone in that idea.

I don't believe you hire people. Because NO ONE hires entry-level professionals jobs EVER without experience. People all across America all had to work for free as an intern. Bob even said so! So when I hired people, obviously I too had to hire engineers and tech with experience. Because BOB SAID SO!

And certainly, no companies ever go to college or vocational school and hire young entry-level professionals. That's right. Because Bob said so! LMFAO.

[thinkalot]

I can't believe this argument is still going on. I'm pretty sure most of us couldn't count all the people we know that got good jobs right out of college.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

There are two sides to the spectrum. On one hand, there are people that can be labeled "bleeding heart liberals". You know, NOTHING is ever someone's fault. If you are dealt a bad hand, well, how can you expect someone to crawl out of that deep and terrible hole. That's you.

On the other spectrum, there are the "heartless conservatives". The people that can point to their outlier example and assume correlations are meaningless examples of reality. AND, both camps are sooooooooooooooooooooo far off base. Try being balanced. As in, the truth is in between.

Agreed. I've been called a right winger and heartless a few times, but the truth is that I fall somewhere in between when it comes to cost of living. While it's nice to see the Phoenix housing market appreciate (it's long overdue), the problem is that Phoenix's overall wages are still on the low side. A large number of middle income people work 8 to 5 type of jobs that require skills & education, and they're the ones who are struggling the most. I've known people at my company who are top performers, and also at the top of their pay grades ... meaning that if they're promoted to the next level, they're unlikely to see a pay increase. I empathize with them the most.

This is why I stress that Phoenix should have a greater corporate HQ presence than it does. One reason our wages are generally lower than a lot of other large cities is we're more of a regional hub than national or global. Therefore, many of the available jobs at the larger firms which require experience tend to be on the lower side of the scale. There are many data center technicians and back office workers, but not enough executive positions (directors or CEOs). Obviously because they're based at the company HQs out of state.