Has Phoenix established itself as the #2 city of the western US? (Tempe: for sale, houses)

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

The snowbird thing is more a plus than a minus for Phoenix. I've often posted in forums that retirees are the best business to attract. We don't require more schools be built which is about half of the cost of running most cities/counties; we don't do the old 9-to-5 schlep to/from work so we don't require more highway lanes to accommodate even more rush hour traffic; we don't require jobs so there's no need to give away our tax dollars as incentives to draw employers here; we have our own retirement income which is free money coming in from out of state pensions, IRAs, and stock dividends; we don't work so there's no pollution from the industrial smokestacks we left behind in the "old country" (Baltimore); we have our own medical insurance in the form of Medicare so there's no cost to local government for that; retirees are long past their rowdy stage so we don't need much in the way of police, courts and prisons.

These are good points, and I agree with all of them in principle, but let's keep things in the proper perspective regarding city prominence. Should the Phoenix area continue to be a snowbird & retirement mecca, despite how large it has gotten? Wouldn't many retirees prefer somewhere smaller & quieter to enjoy their golden years? Most of them need access to sufficient medical care ... however, other than that, what big city amenities do the over 65 crowd partake in? Pro sports? Concerts? Nightlife? Perhaps a few do, but the vast majority of them likely avoid these places.

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

Snowbirds and retirees bring lots of free money to spend on medical facilities, eateries, all manner of retail, dwellings, motor vehicles, etc. and we pay for these things out of our own pockets, not the public trough, and the tax monies we contribute are gravy to the state and local governments.

Yes, they contribute heavily to the SERVICE economy. That's fine to a certain extent, but the service sector mostly consists of low wage jobs & unskilled workers. Phoenix needs to depend less on the service economy, and make more of an effort to attract large businesses, entrepreneurs, and people with innovation, skills, and intelligence. Retirees & snowbirds no longer have an interest in these things because they want to escape the corporate world, and the hustle/bustle. They're looking for places that are more laid back, relaxing, and to recreate with people in their own age range.

Arizona can still be a place where snowbirds & retirees congregate, but the smaller populated areas might be a better fit for them (Yuma, Lake Havasu City, Prescott, Sierra Vista, Casa Grande, or perhaps even Tucson to a lesser extent). The only places in the Phoenix area that are still heavily focused on retirement are the Sun Cities, Sun Lakes, and a few master planned communities in some of the suburban areas. Phoenix and the inner ring suburbs are no longer retirement havens like they used to be. I remember when there were a lot of TV commercials some 30+ years ago advertising various "adult communities" all around Phoenix where snowbirds & retirees can live. You don't see those as much anymore. Still, Phoenix's reputation of being a big attraction for retired seniors lives on because of how heavily promoted it was.

[thinkalot]

You don't see the commercials any longer because those places are built out.

The vast majority of all age groups are likely to avoid pro sports, concerts, and nightlife, and those too are part of the service economy.

If you think the average 58-year-old, the one's moving to those communities prefer smaller and quiet you don't have a clue. You seem to be describing the ones that are natives of the Valley. The ones that got old here.

[Hschlick84]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

These are good points, and I agree with all of them in principle, but let's keep things in the proper perspective regarding city prominence. Should the Phoenix area continue to be a snowbird & retirement mecca, despite how large it has gotten? Wouldn't many retirees prefer somewhere smaller & quieter to enjoy their golden years? Most of them need access to sufficient medical care ... however, other than that, what big city amenities do the over 65 crowd partake in? Pro sports? Concerts? Nightlife? Perhaps a few do, but the vast majority of them likely avoid these places.



Yes, they contribute heavily to the SERVICE economy. That's fine to a certain extent, but the service sector mostly consists of low wage jobs & unskilled workers. Phoenix needs to depend less on the service economy, and make more of an effort to attract large businesses, entrepreneurs, and people with innovation, skills, and intelligence. Retirees & snowbirds no longer have an interest in these things because they want to escape the corporate world, and the hustle/bustle. They're looking for places that are more laid back, relaxing, and to recreate with people in their own age range.

Arizona can still be a place where snowbirds & retirees congregate, but the smaller populated areas might be a better fit for them (Yuma, Lake Havasu City, Prescott, Sierra Vista, Casa Grande, or perhaps even Tucson to a lesser extent). The only places in the Phoenix area that are still heavily focused on retirement are the Sun Cities, Sun Lakes, and a few master planned communities in some of the suburban areas. Phoenix and the inner ring suburbs are no longer retirement havens like they used to be. I remember when there were a lot of TV commercials some 30+ years ago advertising various "adult communities" all around Phoenix where snowbirds & retirees can live. You don't see those as much anymore. Still, Phoenix's reputation of being a big attraction for retired seniors lives on because of how heavily promoted it was.

Which states besides AZ do you think will be the next retirement haven?

I'm guessing South Carolina, Dakotas or parts of the south where it has cheaper cost of living. Yuma gets too hot in the summer, Prescott housing prices are thru the roof compared to the avg price in state, plus its already oversaturated with retirees, Tucson has high crime. Sierra Vista and Casa Grande are probably the only options.

[Mike from back east]

I expect states with no income taxes to attract retirees, TN is one such state, not a cold northern climate and not as dreadfully humid and buggy as FL. NC has both mountains and an ocean to attract people as well as reasonably priced homes and a milder climate. Years ago I learned the term 'halfback' to describe New Englanders who retired to FL, didn't like the humidity, bugs, hurricanes, snowbirds, tourists, spring breakers, etc, so they moved "half way back north" to NC, TN, etc and become known as 'half backs.'

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by thinkalot

You don't see the commercials any longer because those places are built out.

And what about the new senior communities? I don't see those advertised either. Seems that if the Phoenix area was still a huge destination for retirees & snowbirds, there would be a bunch of newer resorts geared specifically for their lifestyles, as well as massive advertising campaigns for them.

Originally Posted by thinkalot

The vast majority of all age groups are likely to avoid pro sports, concerts, and nightlife, and those too are part of the service economy.

If the "vast majority of all age groups" avoided pro sports, concerts, and nightlife, those things wouldn't even exist here because of the lack of demand for them.

Originally Posted by thinkalot

If you think the average 58-year-old, the one's moving to those communities prefer smaller and quiet you don't have a clue. You seem to be describing the ones that are natives of the Valley. The ones that got old here.

Most people in their late 50s are still working full time, and aren't moving anywhere near the senior communities. I'm talking mostly about the over 65 crowd ... especially the ones in their 70s and beyond who are fully retired, living on pensions & Social Security, and prefer to be in active adult communities around others their own age. BTW, I'm a native approaching 60, and I don't prefer smaller & quiet. Just the opposite, in fact.

Originally Posted by Hschlick84

Sierra Vista and Casa Grande are probably the only options.

Those are two of the best towns I can think of for retirees. Both are smallish (but not too small) with all the basic services, slower paced, plenty of outdoor activities, and not too cold in the winter. Sierra Vista has milder summers. Casa Grande is about half way between the Phoenix & Tucson areas, so what isn't available in Casa Grande can be a 50 or 60 mile drive either way.

[Hschlick84]

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

I expect states with no income taxes to attract retirees, TN is one such state, not a cold northern climate and not as dreadfully humid and buggy as FL. NC has both mountains and an ocean to attract people as well as reasonably priced homes and a milder climate. Years ago I learned the term 'halfback' to describe New Englanders who retired to FL, didn't like the humidity, bugs, hurricanes, snowbirds, tourists, spring breakers, etc, so they moved "half way back north" to NC, TN, etc and become known as 'half backs.'

I'm still surprised New Mexico hasn't exploded in population with retirees yet considering some of the state has a decent climate and lower cost of living. If they adopted a no income tax policy, that would change.

[dontbelievehim]

How would they pay for services in NM without taxes? NM is a broke state.
No taxes works best in touristy states and oil rich states. I think NM would be screwed if they went that route, just like Kansas.

[marinezac]

Originally Posted by Hschlick84

I'm still surprised New Mexico hasn't exploded in population with retirees yet considering some of the state has a decent climate and lower cost of living. If they adopted a no income tax policy, that would change.

Its a very poor and crime ridden state, not that Arizona is great on most metrics but NM is worse.

[Ex New Yorker]

Originally Posted by marinezac

Its a very poor and crime ridden state, not that Arizona is great on most metrics but NM is worse.

Unfortunately that's pretty much the case when compared to some other states. But it's not like the entire state is a dump. It has its share of nice homes and neighborhoods and the landscape is pretty nice too. We'd looked into moving there as well even though Arizona was always at the top of our list. As far as Arizona goes at least in our opinion it's still the greatest state in the entire United States.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by Ex New Yorker

Unfortunately that's pretty much the case when compared to some other states. But it's not like the entire state is a dump. It has its share of nice homes and neighborhoods and the landscape is pretty nice too. We'd looked into moving there as well even though Arizona was always at the top of our list. As far as Arizona goes at least in our opinion it's still the greatest state in the entire United States.

I agree, love PHX and the entire state. Most people know very little about the various corners of this state and all of the amazing scenery, towns, and history in State 48. I don't see myself living anywhere else.