PHX Sky Train (Phoenix: sales, unemployment rate, buyers)

[Finger Laker]

here is another question - the phx sky harbor budet is roughly $200M (they actually used needing to increase bus service in an effort to offset construction delays from the people mover as a reason to increase the budget...........)

however, of that $200M how much do you think it devoted to running the current shuttle system?

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Finger Laker

here is another question - the phx sky harbor budet is roughly $200M (they actually used needing to increase bus service in an effort to offset construction delays from the people mover as a reason to increase the budget...........)

however, of that $200M how much do you think it devoted to running the current shuttle system?

No tax dollars are being used for the Sky Train.

It is user fees.

[Finger Laker]

and i'm a user - there are also tax based federal funds and I'm a federal tax payer - there is also funding by special vehicles ...... they can't raise over $1B by tacking a couple dollars here and there to the user fees, let's be realistic

remember that although sky harbor is a self contained entity, it's budget is still intertwined with the city of phoenix and must go through them

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by Finger Laker

and i'm a user - there are also tax based federal funds and I'm a federal tax payer - there is also funding by special vehicles ...... they can't raise over $1B by tacking a couple dollars here and there to the user fees, let's be realistic

remember that although sky harbor is a self contained entity, it's budget is still intertwined with the city of phoenix and must go through them

You still arguing non-sense. Did you take economics, particularly Macro??? Ok, let's use small number to keep it simple. Over 30 million passengers a year use Sky Harbor. If they just charged 4 dollars for airport user fees that would itself raise $120 million a year. Just so you know, the Airport charges more than $4 per ticket. Somebody correct me if I am wrong, don't have my ticket from flying anymore but I believe you get charged about $12 per takeoff/landing from Sky Harbor. Let's not forget that a 4 dollar burger costs 10 at the airport because of concession fees, taxis must pay a fee to pick up/drop off passengers at the airport, people pay to use airport baggage carriers, pay to park at a garage/lot, and pay when they purchase any good from a vendor as well.

[Finger Laker]

don't forget the fees that airlines are charged - they already complaining about having increased fees which is the larger part

a lot of these fees will be passed on to us consumers, making it more expensive to fly into or out of sky harbor

also look at their budget again - they currently collect fee revenue - they will need to increase it to an amount that will support not one, but two major projects ........ it's not like these are new fees, they're pushing the envelope even further and as you mentioned in your burger example it's us who end up bearing the costs - eventually it will just get people to scale back

do you honestly think the airlines are going to be content when phoenix increases their costs yet again, in a poor economic environment when they are facing a ton of financial pressure and struggling to stay solvent all the while ridership into sky harbor is on a pretty significant decline (down between 5-10% over the past two years)

the increases will be widespread and impactful

The higher fees will help fund airport operations, but they come at an inopportune time for airlines already battling soaring jet fuel prices, a tough economy and other financial pressures.
"In this cost environment, any increase matters," said Andrea Goodpasture, properties manager for Dallas-based Southwest Airlines Co.
Southwest and Tempe-based US Airways Group Inc. are the largest carriers at Sky Harbor, with the most gates and flights. Goodpasture and other airline representatives would prefer that Sky Harbor put off its fee increases.
"We are facing record fuel costs with a $61.2 billion fuel bill for 2008, up $20 billion from 2007. We can ill afford to take on new costs, especially when airports already are resource-rich," said David Castelveter, vice president of the Air Transport Association of America Inc.

Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport increases come at worst possible time for ailing airlines - Phoenix Business Journal:

once again it's stupid to hitch your wagon to the airlines

the largest portion of the fees are going to hit the airlines - the hike in the mentioned article cost US Airlines an extra $1M in increased leasing costs alone which is substantial to them, but a small drop in the bucket when you look at the funding needed for this mess of a project

you can keep throwing out these blind bonuses, but if you feel you are an economic wizard prove that this is cost effective

you can't because it isn't

[Finger Laker]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

You still arguing non-sense. Did you take economics, particularly Macro???

did you? - not sure why you are trying to bring macro into what is pretty much a micro scenario

[Greatday]

Are the airlines going to stop flying into, and out of, the 5th largest city in the United States?

Is Air Travel likely to increase at Sky Harbor over the next 10 to 15 years do to, if nothing else, population growth?

Is Phoenix Sky Harbor being seriously looked at by several MAJOR international Carriers (in addition to the ones already here) to use Sky Harbor as a Gateway to Europe and Asia?

Yes, there will be increased fees to the Airlines - but then again, find one major Metro Airport that is NOT raising fees to the airlines -

FACT REMAINS: The Sky Train is being built.

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by Finger Laker

don't forget the fees that airlines are charged - they already complaining about having increased fees which is the larger part

a lot of these fees will be passed on to us consumers, making it more expensive to fly into or out of sky harbor

also look at their budget again - they currently collect fee revenue - they will need to increase it to an amount that will support not one, but two major projects ........ it's not like these are new fees, they're pushing the envelope even further and as you mentioned in your burger example it's us who end up bearing the costs - eventually it will just get people to scale back

do you honestly think the airlines are going to be content when phoenix increases their costs yet again, in a poor economic environment when they are facing a ton of financial pressure and struggling to stay solvent all the while ridership into sky harbor is on a pretty significant decline (down between 5-10% over the past two years)

the increases will be widespread and impactful



Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport increases come at worst possible time for ailing airlines - Phoenix Business Journal:

once again it's stupid to hitch your wagon to the airlines

the largest portion of the fees are going to hit the airlines - the hike in the mentioned article cost US Airlines an extra $1M in increased leasing costs alone which is substantial to them, but a small drop in the bucket when you look at the funding needed for this mess of a project

you can keep throwing out these blind bonuses, but if you feel you are an economic wizard prove that this is cost effective

you can't because it isn't

Wow, someone NEEDS to get back to economics class. Economic slumps don't last forever. Not the Great Depression, not the Savings and Loan debacle, and certainly not this crisis. Sky Harbor MAY have increased fees at the "worst time" because of this crisis but it isn't disastrous. Fees would increase either way. Sky Harbor isn't the most expensive airport and ALL airports across the country have faced a drop in passenger traffic. The 5-10% decrease isn't unique to Phoenix. Looking at economics and revenue through the small lens of the current economic slump is bad policy.

[Finger Laker]

show me the ones that are raising their fees signficant amounts

also why would PHX Sky Harbor be a gatway to Europe & Asia .... that is just silly .... who is seriously looking at this

and yes, flights are being cut into and out of sky harbor

Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport expects 2008 passenger counts to be 5 percent lower than 2007 and is projecting a 9 percent drop for 2009 as the economy takes the wind out of travel and carriers trim flight schedules.

Fisher said the airport will base any expansion on requests from airlines for more space to handle their passenger loads, which she hopes will bounce back in 2010.

so you need to rely on the same airlines that you are going to rip off to demand your expansion?!

Sky Harbor served 2.2 million fewer passengers during the first 11 months of 2008 than during the same period in 2007. More than 42 million passengers used Sky Harbor in 2007.
Airlines also are planning to cut more domestic flights to help their bottom lines. US Airways, which has 264 daily departures from Phoenix to 84 cities, plans to discontinue up to 10 percent of its flights systemwide in 2009, said spokeswoman Valerie Wunder.
“We haven’t determined the cuts yet,” she said.
Southwest Airlines, which has 184 daily Sky Harbor departures, is cutting single flights between Phoenix and Los Angeles; Boise, Idaho; St. Louis; Reno, Nev.; and San Antonio, Texas, but will add one daily flight to Denver.
Other U.S. airlines also are expected to trim their schedules in the face of decreased demand and bottom-line pressures.
“We are going to see more cuts in flights to a lot of places,” said Robert Mittelstaedt, dean of Arizona State University’s W.P. Carey School of Business.

Fisher said Phoenix lost direct service to seven small markets in 2008. She expects 2009 cuts by U.S. airlines to be mostly in the form of single flight reductions to cities with multiple flights.
Mittelstaedt expects airline fares, which saw run-ups in the first half of 2008 because of record-high jet fuel costs, to remain stable or decrease in 2009 as demand drops off and fuel prices remain lower.
“I don’t they are going to have a lot of ability to raise fares,” he said.

[Finger Laker]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

Wow, someone NEEDS to get back to economics class. Economic slumps don't last forever. Not the Great Depression, not the Savings and Loan debacle, and certainly not this crisis. Sky Harbor MAY have increased fees at the "worst time" because of this crisis but it isn't disastrous. Fees would increase either way. Sky Harbor isn't the most expensive airport and ALL airports across the country have faced a drop in passenger traffic. The 5-10% decrease isn't unique to Phoenix. Looking at economics and revenue through the small lens of the current economic slump is bad policy.

and yet you can't come up with any sort of fiscal evidence that this makes sense

you can dismiss what i'm saying as short sighted all you want, but why would you pressure airlines, increase the costs to the consumers and take on such a large fiscal expenditure for something that has NO BENEFIT

i'm still waiting on the benefits other than great day not having to lift their luggage up a step .............