Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
As a liberal person I would choose Phoenix over Denver. I've been to a few pride festivals in that city and I won't be going back for a while. I've never been called a f_g as much I was called this in Denver. Occurred more there compare to Atlanta, Orlando, Dallas, and Houston. The club areas are unfriendly to those not straight and white it seems. The protests there were very discouraging and hard to comprehend coming from Phoenix where such protests are nonexistent. From what I have seen and from what I hear from most people who've gone to Denver, we're dumbfounded as to why that city is considered liberal. To me it felt very similar to Dallas. Just didn't feel like a good city to be in for a pride celebration despite its beauty towards the WEST. The eastern half of the city and towards the "flat lands" are hideous and often brown with dead vegetation.
Skin cancer in Colorado is as much a problem compared to Arizona because of the percentage of sunny days.
You are a self-acclaimed snowbird who recently moved here yet claim to know that Phoenix will always remain a suburban city? What in your 2-3 years here qualifies you to make that type of statement? And for all of your negative comments about Phoenix, you are still here and haven't left. You are always criticizing Phoenix yet you haven't moved to any of the cities that you continue to claim is so much better than Phoenix. It should also be known that you have criticized development projects in favor of scenery and other environmental aspirations therefore your criticism of our failure to develop downtown and urban presence is hypocritical. Given your limited experience in Phoenix and hypocritical stance regarding development and choice to live here, your credibility in judging this city is questionable.
I guess this is supposed to be directed toward me. I have never claimed to be a snowbird, Phoenix WILL always be a suburban-styled city, and I am a NIMBY. Why do you care? I pay taxes and I own a home. I have the right to voice opposition. If you don't like it, oh well.
Why do I need to move away from Phoenix? I like it here. I have defended Phoenix NUMEROUS times against the Houston forummers who like to start trouble around here.
It doesn't take a very long time to figure out what the Valley is about. Housing developments that look the same everywhere, strip malls that look the same everywhere, a small downtown that is failing at attempting revitalization like so many other cities, and metropolitan area where the majority of people live in the suburbs. Honestly, does it take 20+ years of living here to learn what Phoenix is about? No. The area's really not that complex.
You claim to have lived in Texas before you moved to Phoenix (doubtful from your claim in another thread that Dallas is the only municipality in Dallas County). However, you can have valid opinions on Phoenix, but I can't? Sorry, this is America, I have a right to freedom of speech.
The facts that I am providing the OP with about Phoenix are TRUE. Phoenix's urban experience cannot compare with Denver's, a city with about one-third the population of Phoenix. I don't want it to, either. I moved to Phoenix for a reason, and that was not have 60 story skyscrapers caving me in. Luckily, with the economic downturn, proximity to Sky Harbor, and the general opinions of Phoenicians, that will not happen for a LONG time, if ever. I like Phoenix the way it is.
Please tell me how I am a hypocrite, and I will tell you how you're wrong. Again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native
One of the ongoing issues here is NIMBYism, which refers to a few isolated pockets of malcontents who are against practically everything pertaining to development and improvement in quality of life. They have protested everything from highrises to freeways to mass transit to theme parks! What's ironic is they don't seem to protest the new cookie cutter suburban developments, or the hit & miss outward sprawl. They often call themselves "preservationists" ... but the only thing that results from their bellyaching is the "preservation" of brown mountain views, ugly vacant lots or dilapidated old structures that serve no purpose. AZRiverfan was simply responding to one particular poster that easily fits the definition of a NIMBY.
Isolated pockets that were strong enough to run Donald Trump out of Phoenix? Isolated pockets that caused him to say that he would never return? As it stands now, there are NO proposals for any monstrous development in Phoenix. I guess the pro-Manhattanization group has failed... yet again.
You seem to think quality of life equals a 70 story skyscraper. I think quality of life is protecting the mountain views and keeping people in touch with the natural environment that ACTUALLY surrounds them.
It's hilarious how much energy people put behind changing Phoenix into something it's not, nor will ever be. However, keep on trying. Lord knows how long this city has been trying to redevelop it's downtown with no avail. What a bunch of wasted effort and resources.
If you want skyscrapers and an urban experience, move to Denver. There is no sense is waiting for Phoenix to become something that it will never become.
Miamiman, you're saying that protecting the mountain view is important. While I find that's true in some way, I'd say, DON'T MOVE DOWNTOWN IF YOU WANT TO SEE THE MOUNTAINS.
What you're saying honestly sounds like this in my mind, "I am a NIMBY and I don't like highrises, therefore Phoenix will always be suburban." False. Lots of cities have ways to change, and I like the efforts that are being put forth now. Light rail was an awesome idea and I'm glad to see it in a city like Phoenix, CityScape is a wonderful project that will surely add to the interest in downtown as well, and the thousands of people moving there surely will help.
But what can I say? I don't live there yet. I hope to get involved though. I don't think it's right to impede progression on the city itself. Phoenix is a huge city now. Thing is though, it hasn't fully grown up yet. Just give it the opportunity and a little bit of time, and urbanism can become a reality in downtown.
Please tell me how I am a hypocrite, and I will tell you how you're wrong. Again.
You seem to think quality of life equals a 70 story skyscraper. I think quality of life is protecting the mountain views and keeping people in touch with the natural environment that ACTUALLY surrounds them.
It's hilarious how much energy people put behind changing Phoenix into something it's not, nor will ever be. However, keep on trying. Lord knows how long this city has been trying to redevelop it's downtown with no avail. What a bunch of wasted effort and resources.
If you want skyscrapers and an urban experience, move to Denver. There is no sense is waiting for Phoenix to become something that it will never become.
Okay, you criticize Phoenix for it's lack of development and urbanization yet you also want to preserve mountain views at the expense of downtown's development. The fact that you can't see your own hypocrisy is amusing. And you have put down Phoenix more than you defend as I'm sure most on this forum can attest to. Your short tenure here does speak about your credibility because it's obvious based on your posts, you haven't spent much time in downtown Phoenix because there is a considerable amount of development that is occuring there so for a self-proclaimed NIMBY who has lived here for 1-2 years to say that Phoenix will always lack an urban presence is just comical. It's one thing to provide an opinion but it's another to make an ultimatum about a city when you have little knowledge of it with regard to development in downtown. And that's fairly obvious based on some of your comments above. There are high rises under construction in downtown as we speak, light rail is succeeding, a number of restaurants and shopping are currently going up...so much for wasted efforts. Like I said...comical!
Last edited by azriverfan.; 09-22-2009 at 03:57 PM..
As a liberal person I would choose Phoenix over Denver. I've been to a few pride festivals in that city and I won't be going back for a while. I've never been called a f_g as much I was called this in Denver. Occurred more there compare to Atlanta, Orlando, Dallas, and Houston. The club areas are unfriendly to those not straight and white it seems. The protests there were very discouraging and hard to comprehend coming from Phoenix where such protests are nonexistent. From what I have seen and from what I hear from most people who've gone to Denver, we're dumbfounded as to why that city is considered liberal. To me it felt very similar to Dallas. Just didn't feel like a good city to be in for a pride celebration despite its beauty towards the WEST. The eastern half of the city and towards the "flat lands" are hideous and often brown with dead vegetation.
Skin cancer in Colorado is as much a problem compared to Arizona because of the percentage of sunny days.
I'm somewhat surprised... there are some long-established gay areas of Denver which are well known and somewhat similar in their location (near downtown, before downtowns became more hip). I grew up near there, still have a number of gay friends living there, and nobody I know gives a damn. That's too bad you had a negative experience... but maybe you were in the wrong spots at the wrong time. Overall it's a pretty laid back place, but also draws a lot of new residents from more traditional, rural places where being anti-gay was tolerated. Sometimes the most vocal asshats act louder because they are losing their voice. Both cities are more similar than different. In fact there might not be two cities that aren't more alike when talking about non-coastal areas... both are fast growing, spread out, very educated, have varied, but undefined economies, and attract certain outdoor lovers (hike or ski). We're closer cousins than LA and San Fran, or Dallas and Houston.
Okay, you criticize Phoenix for it's lack of development and urbanization yet you also want to preserve mountain views at the expense of downtown's development. The fact that you can't see your own hypocrisy is amusing. And you have put down Phoenix more than you defend as I'm sure most on this forum can attest to. Your short tenure here does speak about your credibility because it's obvious based on your posts, you haven't spent much time in downtown Phoenix because there is a considerable amount of development that is occuring there so for a self-proclaimed NIMBY who has lived here for 1-2 years to say that Phoenix will always lack an urban presence is just comical. It's one thing to provide an opinion but it's another to make an ultimatum about a city when you have little knowledge of it with regard to development in downtown. And that's fairly obvious based on some of your comments above. There are high rises under construction in downtown as we speak, light rail is succeeding, a number of restaurants and shopping are currently going up...so much for wasted efforts. Like I said...comical!
Just be thankful that NIMBYs like him are in the minority. The best thing the rest of us can do is just ignore that crowd. They basically have no purpose or direction in life except to stir trouble. The main reason NIMBYs were successful in stopping some of the developments is the city and the developers didn't brush them off as they should have.
This is one reason why Phoenix has got to focus more on being more of a world class city, and less on attracting the ones who move here primarily for cheap housing and a sunny climate. Quality of life is more than just skyscrapers ... and it's certainly more than just the ability to worship the sun or gawk at the mountains! A world class metro area with a high quality of life includes a nice skyline as well as other things like theme parks, museums, good transportation ... and most of all: A COMPETITIVE JOB MARKET! Reputable firms that frequently make the Fortune 500 or Fortune 1,000 list are what this place needs to attract. We certainly could use more highly skillful & educated people here, and fewer sun freaks, retirees, & NIMBYs!
I'm somewhat surprised... there are some long-established gay areas of Denver which are well known and somewhat similar in their location (near downtown, before downtowns became more hip). I grew up near there, still have a number of gay friends living there, and nobody I know gives a damn. That's too bad you had a negative experience... but maybe you were in the wrong spots at the wrong time. Overall it's a pretty laid back place, but also draws a lot of new residents from more traditional, rural places where being anti-gay was tolerated. Sometimes the most vocal asshats act louder because they are losing their voice. Both cities are more similar than different. In fact there might not be two cities that aren't more alike when talking about non-coastal areas... both are fast growing, spread out, very educated, have varied, but undefined economies, and attract certain outdoor lovers (hike or ski). We're closer cousins than LA and San Fran, or Dallas and Houston.
This is the mindset I had on my trips to Denver but was surprised how different the city is compared to Phoenix. It's downtown isn't really that much more impressive and the gay areas were small. Although I don't think a concrete and solidly defined gayborhood is a necessity it does make a city feel more urban, diverse, and progressive. There are multiple areas in Phoenix and throughout the Valley that would make "diverse" neighborhoods in Denver seem teeny tiny. There are areas in PHoenix that are not just gay but just hugely diverse and open. It didn't feel this way anywhere in Denver.
I don't think San Fran and L.A. are close cousins at all. Maybe San Fran and Seattle, but L.A. and Phoenix are actually more closely related than Denver and Phoenix. I'd consider Denver a closer cousin to Albuquerque or maybe Minneapolis. A lot of the protesters and anti-gay epitaphs were shouted at us AT the actual Pride event and not in some random spot outside the city or in a more suburban area. This has never and would never happen in Phoenix. Protesters at PRIDE??? What is that? I know there are some cities with huge anti-Pride protesters like Dallas, Atlanta, Charleston, St. Louis, Minneapolis, etc but didn't expect it in so-called liberal Denver. Still, that was very discouraging and disheartening for a reputed "liberal" city. It just wasn't and did not feel that way one bit. I have friends that also moved to Phoenix from Denver and they notice the stark difference. Many gay clubs in Phoenix are in huge minority (latino) neighborhoods and are welcomed and supported. Try that in Denver! Just will not happen.
As for urban development, Phoenix is much closer and will be able to have a larger urban core than Denver in the near future. We have a ways to go to catch up to Seattle and less distance to San Diego but it won't be impossible. I like how the city of Phoenix is focusing on density downtown and have alleviated height restrictions in midtown and uptown. I've said it before, downtown doesn't need to be dense and extremely tall but dense and tall. The other two urban cores can be home to extremely tall skyscrapers and this is the city's plan.
As for MiamiMan; we've had this discussion before. From his home and area of the metro he can't even see the buildings and high-rises in the Central City. He is on the other side of the Papagos, Camelback, the mountain preserves, etc. Even if we could transplant the Willis (Sears) Tower downtown he wouldn't be able to see it, LOL!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Just will not happen. 
