Comparing Phoenix to Seattle (recent topic of discussion) (Scottsdale, Goodyear: fit in, transplants)

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

I've visited Seattle several times and the thing that most impressed me is how close together houses are in the new build areas around there. You think we are tight here? I honestly do not know how they nailed on that tacky and cheap-looking vinyl siding. There is no place between houses to swing a hammer even!

Pre-constructed modular frames... (wonder if they are earthquake tested, now that I think about it, I sure freakin' hope so)

Have friends in these ticky tacky houses in suburban Seattle because they are much cheaper than purchasing near the city. But these little cardboard houses stretch from near Bellingham, WA close to the Canadian border to Yelm, south of Olympia at a distance of over 100 miles (of course with much leap frog development). On top of that, the metro Seattle population is smaller than metro Phoenix...

Because of the suburban sprawl, the urbanites in Seattle constantly vote for measures that punish suburban residents with "congestion taxes" on freeways, property tax increases for the myriad of transit agencies in the metro Seattle region, etc.

[miamiman]

The confusion here is that the majority of Phoenicians really couldn't care less if Phoenix is considered a "real city." Phoenicians don't care how many NPR stations we have, Phoenicians don't care if the downtown skyline is smaller than that of some suburban cities, Phoenicians don't care that they don't have access to all the Uzbek or Sri Lankan food that one could ask for, Phoenicians don't care if their neighborhood isn't considered quirky or funky, etc.

I am tired of people comparing Phoenix to other cities that we have no desire of emulating. These poor attempts of both bloggers and other posters on C-D of comparing Phoenix to other areas is foolish. Phoenix is unique. It IS the most suburban-oriented major city in the United States. Most Phoenicians couldn't care less. There are so many people who deride Phoenix for what it doesn't have, but fail to see Phoenix for what it does have.

Does Seattle have 75 degree days in January? No. Is Seattle in the most lush desert in the world? No. Is Seattle within reasonable driving distance of Las Vegas, Los Angeles, and beaches with tolerable water temperatures? No. Has Seattle recently been one of the fastest growing cities in the United States? No. Does Seattle host Spring Training? No. Has the Super Bowl ever been hosted in Seattle? No. Does Seattle even have the amount of upscale shopping that Phoenix has? No.

Phoenix is Phoenix and that's all we should ever strive to be.

[acrylic]

Originally Posted by miamiman

Phoenicians don't care that they don't have access to all the Uzbek or Sri Lankan food that one could ask for

I'd actually like to try Uzbek food as well as Sri Lankan food some day

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by miamiman

The confusion here is that the majority of Phoenicians really couldn't care less if Phoenix is considered a "real city." Phoenicians don't care how many NPR stations we have, Phoenicians don't care if the downtown skyline is smaller than that of some suburban cities, Phoenicians don't care that they don't have access to all the Uzbek or Sri Lankan food that one could ask for, Phoenicians don't care if their neighborhood isn't considered quirky or funky, etc.

I am tired of people comparing Phoenix to other cities that we have no desire of emulating. These poor attempts of both bloggers and other posters on C-D of comparing Phoenix to other areas is foolish. Phoenix is unique. It IS the most suburban-oriented major city in the United States. Most Phoenicians couldn't care less. There are so many people who deride Phoenix for what it doesn't have, but fail to see Phoenix for what it does have.

Does Seattle have 75 degree days in January? No. Is Seattle in the most lush desert in the world? No. Is Seattle within reasonable driving distance of Las Vegas, Los Angeles, and beaches with tolerable water temperatures? No. Has Seattle recently been one of the fastest growing cities in the United States? No. Does Seattle host Spring Training? No. Has the Super Bowl ever been hosted in Seattle? No. Does Seattle even have the amount of upscale shopping that Phoenix has? No.

Phoenix is Phoenix and that's all we should ever strive to be.

Hallelujah! I am not alone.

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by miamiman

The confusion here is that the majority of Phoenicians really couldn't care less if Phoenix is considered a "real city." Phoenicians don't care how many NPR stations we have, Phoenicians don't care if the downtown skyline is smaller than that of some suburban cities, Phoenicians don't care that they don't have access to all the Uzbek or Sri Lankan food that one could ask for, Phoenicians don't care if their neighborhood isn't considered quirky or funky, etc.

I am tired of people comparing Phoenix to other cities that we have no desire of emulating. These poor attempts of both bloggers and other posters on C-D of comparing Phoenix to other areas is foolish. Phoenix is unique. It IS the most suburban-oriented major city in the United States. Most Phoenicians couldn't care less. There are so many people who deride Phoenix for what it doesn't have, but fail to see Phoenix for what it does have.

Does Seattle have 75 degree days in January? No. Is Seattle in the most lush desert in the world? No. Is Seattle within reasonable driving distance of Las Vegas, Los Angeles, and beaches with tolerable water temperatures? No. Has Seattle recently been one of the fastest growing cities in the United States? No. Does Seattle host Spring Training? No. Has the Super Bowl ever been hosted in Seattle? No. Does Seattle even have the amount of upscale shopping that Phoenix has? No.

Phoenix is Phoenix and that's all we should ever strive to be.

Speak for yourself; aren't you a Scottsdalian anyway. There are other important factors besides 75° in January, which is rare for Phoenix but maybe not Miami, Miamiman. How about availability of jobs, attracting residents interested in reliable transportation, a highly skilled workforce, an educated populace which in turn means one of the surest ways to lower crime rates, and the ability to grow the economy. That is why a city's image is important...

The truth is that Phoenicians, real Phoenicians, like my relatives (and older relatives for sure who remember the cityscape before) and their friends and now my generation have always seen Phoenix as a city growing and remember Phoenix having "big city" amenities like well planned transit in the form of rail (commuter and street), downtown department stores and shops, very closely spaced mid-rises and high-rises, a dense core, tons of people walking on well shaded streets, etc.

It is the non-native transplant, whom I've never heard call themselves Phoenicians, who see Phoenix as "suburban." We Phoenicians and natives do not see it as such and especially NOT the core. This, I believe, was shown by county residents passing a transit tax for light rail, and then the residents of Phoenix passing yet another for light rail. Of course Scottsdale, which is a suburb, doesn't have such desires which is fine for a second tier city with no high-rises and no desire to compete with the Seattles, Minneapolises, and Denvers.

[fcorrales80]

Time to reclaim the old Phoenix in modern terms:

Yes, those are overhead wires and rails in the street for the old rail cars heading downtown:



This is what my grandmother and relatives remember before the "great migration":

[nickw252]

great pictures fcorrales

[richard222]

Hey CMIST, I lived in the Seattle area for the last 30 years and the reason they have built up instead of out (read sprawl) is because of the "Growth Management Act" They drew a line around the main population area and zoned anything outside of that R5, R10 or R20, meaning one house to 5 acres or 20 acres. You could not develop or divide your own property PLUS if you did have 5 acres or more the county took control of about 40% of it saying that you had to leave it in its "Natural State" , no cutting down any trees, no cultivation, no nothing, left Natural, weeds and all. The people that did live within the boundaries loved it but the property owners that it affected did not like having their property commandeered by the state. You still owned it and got to pay taxes on it but you could not do anything with it. In my opinion the government in the Seattle/King County area is oppressive to property owners. Development is oriented toward condo's, town houses and apartments. There is a lot of places being torn down so they can put in multi-family units. Some people like it, not me.

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by richard222

Hey CMIST, I lived in the Seattle area for the last 30 years and the reason they have built up instead of out (read sprawl) is because of the "Growth Management Act" They drew a line around the main population area and zoned anything outside of that R5, R10 or R20, meaning one house to 5 acres or 20 acres. You could not develop or divide your own property PLUS if you did have 5 acres or more the county took control of about 40% of it saying that you had to leave it in its "Natural State" , no cutting down any trees, no cultivation, no nothing, left Natural, weeds and all. The people that did live within the boundaries loved it but the property owners that it affected did not like having their property commandeered by the state. You still owned it and got to pay taxes on it but you could not do anything with it. In my opinion the government in the Seattle/King County area is oppressive to property owners. Development is oriented toward condo's, town houses and apartments. There is a lot of places being torn down so they can put in multi-family units. Some people like it, not me.

The Management Act isn't working too well with the sprawl if that was its intended purpose. You can't escape it in Western Washington all along the Puget Sound; from Oly to Redmond and now further north and east...besides the "Growth Management Act (GMA) and subsequently created three independent Growth Management Hearings Boards to resolve land use disputes and to reflect regional diversity." It wasn't an urban boundary restriction act like in areas of Portland.

[cmist]

Originally Posted by richard222

Hey CMIST, I lived in the Seattle area for the last 30 years and the reason they have built up instead of out (read sprawl) is because of the "Growth Management Act" They drew a line around the main population area and zoned anything outside of that R5, R10 or R20, meaning one house to 5 acres or 20 acres. You could not develop or divide your own property PLUS if you did have 5 acres or more the county took control of about 40% of it saying that you had to leave it in its "Natural State" , no cutting down any trees, no cultivation, no nothing, left Natural, weeds and all. The people that did live within the boundaries loved it but the property owners that it affected did not like having their property commandeered by the state. You still owned it and got to pay taxes on it but you could not do anything with it. In my opinion the government in the Seattle/King County area is oppressive to property owners. Development is oriented toward condo's, town houses and apartments. There is a lot of places being torn down so they can put in multi-family units. Some people like it, not me.

Interesting. I understand there are zoning laws and it also has negative consequences as well. If they didn't have the geographic boundaries like the puget sound, and being boxed in by some mountain ranges, they would probably be as carefree about development as Phoenix is.

The positive side to this is that there will always be strong demand for even the most undesirable property... but I do understand that actually living that way has its downfalls as well.

We in Phoenix have enough land to expand into the wild blue yonder and so we don't feel the pressure to enact any such growth measures, and this has its downfalls as well... If you can't find a decent paying job to pay for your stucco home on the faraway fringes, what good is it?

I believe we should focus on providing for the region we have already developed and give some demand to existing structures before adding more.