Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Honestly, I have no idea. I suspect not that many but you repeatedly state that a ton of jobs were lost. Could you point me in the direction of some evidence either way? I assume you must have seen some given the certainty of your statements and I would like to look at it myself. Thanks.
Of course this point has been hashed and re-hashed here. But to consider the possibility seriously - what would the timeline be? The Gen Ass has to do the job. In all probability it never will, but supposing it can be brought to act, the legislation would certainly have to have the backing of a governor who is not called Corbett. Therefore 2015 at the earliest, possibly 2019 if Shaler Tom wins a second term (which at the moment I'd call a likely possibility). Realistically, the clock starts when a hypothetical new governor willing to back such a major initiative is sworn into office. Then the legislative process begins - several more years, possibly not in this new man's first term. So now we're looking at 2020 or later - say, 2023. Then some sort of mass transit agency would need to be established, organized and begin to operate - another year or two at least, I should think? So, possibly some time in the middle of the next decade, we can butter your toast.
So what do you propose? Raise taxes? Add new taxes? Find a new tax? Raise the cost of something else? At what cost to our region? It is a factor in my recent decision not to buy a bar/restaurant that I was going to refurbish into something nice. That would have improved a building and hopefully another nice place to eat and drink for a neighborhood. The other factor in my decision was the reassessment value they gave the property. Oh another big tax bill.
The business climate here is very difficult. Only the strongest of investors can survive, which means very little competition. All this is due to failing government and huge amounts of waste. How does a bus driver make over $80K a year? $90K? What about these pension? How the heck do we pay for those promises. Sure those retired bus drivers and employees are loving life, but at what cost to EVERYONE? This picture is huge! Businesses closing, people not investing due to business climate. Is everyone blind to those facts? Do people just see some bus routes being cut and not a bigger picture?
It keeps climbing, but that was a pretty good indication of things to come. I know two others that closed this past December, I think it was. Maybe 100 bars? Don't know?
Sure Lubick. Of course places like Hooters or whatever can afford it, but the ma and pa places get hit the hardest. It was sad to hear about Mr. Smalls, but they got lucky for now. Such a cool venue.
Oh just to make sure people realize this is ON TOPIC!!!! This is a byproduct of PAT buses failure to budget correctly. This IS completely ON TOPIC and people DID lose businesses and jobs over this complete failure by PAT.
Well, this is 18 months old and mostly anecdotal. Have you seen anything else? Perhaps with more updated statistics and less speculation.
As you note, Mr. Smalls is still open so it's not really a "casualty" and I'd bet the new register system probably had efficiencies built in that helped the business in other ways aside from tax collection. According to the article it does seem as though those bars that were forced out due to the drink tax were barely hanging on in the first place. The recession may have done them in anyway.
I thought this informative:
Quote:
About 40 bars closed while their drink taxes were overdue, a factor several industry people point to as evidence the tax was an onerous measure on small businesses with small profit margins in a tough economy. County officials disagree, calling that claim an excuse. All but 5 percent of the county's 2,000 bars have paid the tax without incident, Weinstein said.
If those numbers are correct, we're talking 2% of the bars in the County and that's 2+ years after the law was enacted. I would think there would be that much churn in a normal year. Personally, I haven't seen fewer and less crowded bars in the City, but maybe it hasn't been affected as much as other parts of the County.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not really in favor of tying the "drink tax" to PAT and think there should have been a more broad based source of funding initiated to support transit, but I'm not really sure that the drink tax has had many negative repercussions. Just wish I could find something that really examined the question.
Frankly, I propose nothing, because there is nothing to be done. PAT suffers principally from high legacy costs and dwindling state aid. I hope everyone who has followed this question and thinks seriously about it will agree on this point.
As has been demonstrated here often enough, the legacy cost problem could only possibly be dealt with by fiat of the state legislature, and as I said above, that's not likely to happen for a decade or more, if it ever does.
It is no more likely that Harrisburg will come to the rescue with more money. It is conceivable, I suppose, that both houses of the Gen Ass might come to be controlled by a transit-friendly party (not to name any party specifically) which would then insist, even over a governor's veto, on increasing, restoring or refunding Allegheny Co's share of transportation money. This seems about as likely to me as the chance of Ron Paul occupying the Oval Office next year. A far more likely scenario, in my view, is the one I've just outlined above - in short, nothing happens here until 2025 or so. Obviously, by that time, PAT will be a skeletal ruin and Gtr Pgh will simply not have a transit system in anything but name.
Raising taxes locally to increase PAT's budget might be the most likely possibility, but only slightly, and as you point out, increasing local taxes comes at a price elsewhere for Greater Pgh.
I agree with you (and every other serious person who considers this quandry) that the prospect of a doomed mass-transit agency locked in a death spiral for the next decade is a grim one for Greater Pgh/Allegheny Co. On the other hand, I think this is precisely what will happen.
In that case, what is needed from civic leadership - elected or otherwise - is brutal honesty. The county exec, Pgh mayor, various councillors, business and education leaders need to step around the hype about "most liveable city" and begin to prepare the region for the consequences in terms of slowed growth and decline.
To be blunt: Pgh's relative economic advantages seem strong at the moment, but prosperity in the third decade of this century will absolutely require comprehensive transportation planning. Portland may no longer be hip - but in 2030 it will be doing very well, thanks very much, because it has the infrastructure to thrive in the future. Greater Pittsburgh does not and will not, with the consequence that its presently rather rosy outlook will change for the worse. This city is not going to live up to these expectations, largely because politics matter, and both Pgh and PA happen to have dysfunctional political systems. That's going to bite this city. And nothing can be done about it.
As to your plans for investment - I think you should buy that restaurant. In Minneapolis. Or Portland. Or Chapel Hill. Just not here.
I think people the only reason people look at the drink tax as nothing major is because it only effects those d@mn bars; think of the outrage if the county slapped an extra 10, then 7% tax on all businesses here. It's no different then what was actually done except just narrowly targeted a small segment of businesses that lack large public support. It may only be a small percentage of places that had to close their doors but it really sucks that someone lost their livelihood that they were obviously struggling to keep afloat anyways because the County needed their money to pay some pat pensions.
Well, this is 18 months old and mostly anecdotal. Have you seen anything else? Perhaps with more updated statistics and less speculation.
The effects are not meant to be a dated item. If 50 WAS the number, it is still part of the byproduct of PAT's failures. I don't have a running number. I do know that purchases were down 3.5% on average from the STATE run liquor rip off business! Mr. Smalls is a real life experience and they had to get bailed out by a friend. More debt due to that tax. Means nothing to you, but it create a bad business climate. If it was 10 bars that closed, is that no big deal? People are losing their livelihoods due to PAT's incompetence and promises that it can't keep. A toll road on I-80 to bail out stupidity? How much waste is there at PAT? Should drivers EVER make $80K a year? Come on! Sorry, they drive a bus. Really almost ANYONE can do it that has a drivers license. Now we have these huge fixed costs, the pensions to deal with. What can be done? Less routes? Hiring freeze? New taxes to destroy businesses? Finding more taxes to make things worse? Bottom line is, you are trying to attack my whole view by wondering how many bars closed. How about ONE! I don't care. The model of raising costs and finding other ways of raising money be support a foolish promise is the problem. What do you think can be done? Do you have an answer? I don't agree with penalizing an industry (bar's/restaurants) because of a failure of another industry. That is logically unfair! It really should be illegal. If you are going to penalize anyone, it should be ALL, not one industry. We the people somehow let that pension mess fly. The media didn't do their job and they didn't show us the mess. Of course they are all driving and not taking a bus, so they probably could care less.
Sure Lubick. Of course places like Hooters or whatever can afford it, but the ma and pa places get hit the hardest. It was sad to hear about Mr. Smalls, but they got lucky for now. Such a cool venue.
I'm not sure why you brought up Mr. Smalls since they are still open, but Mr. Smalls shouldn't really count. I think they are only open during concerts.
Now we have these huge fixed costs, the pensions to deal with. What can be done?
Wait. Time, the healer of all.
But if you want to do something? The single most useful thing anyone in this area could do about PAT's situation? Buy each and every retired PAT employee a lifetime giftcard to Primanti's.
The effects are not meant to be a dated item. If 50 WAS the number, it is still part of the byproduct of PAT's failures. I don't have a running number. I do know that purchases were down 3.5% on average from the STATE run liquor rip off business! Mr. Smalls is a real life experience and they had to get bailed out by a friend. More debt due to that tax. Means nothing to you, but it create a bad business climate. If it was 10 bars that closed, is that no big deal? People are losing their livelihoods due to PAT's incompetence and promises that it can't keep. A toll road on I-80 to bail out stupidity? How much waste is there at PAT? Should drivers EVER make $80K a year? Come on! Sorry, they drive a bus. Really almost ANYONE can do it that has a drivers license. Now we have these huge fixed costs, the pensions to deal with. What can be done? Less routes? Hiring freeze? New taxes to destroy businesses? Finding more taxes to make things worse? Bottom line is, you are trying to attack my whole view by wondering how many bars closed. How about ONE! I don't care. The model of raising costs and finding other ways of raising money be support a foolish promise is the problem. What do you think can be done? Do you have an answer? I don't agree with penalizing an industry (bar's/restaurants) because of a failure of another industry. That is logically unfair! It really should be illegal. If you are going to penalize anyone, it should be ALL, not one industry. We the people somehow let that pension mess fly. The media didn't do their job and they didn't show us the mess. Of course they are all driving and not taking a bus, so they probably couldn't care less.
I just wanted to know if you had evidence on which you've based your opinions or merely anecdotes and biases. Based on your responses I have my answer. Thanks.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
