Pirates 2016!

[UKyank]

Originally Posted by gmagoo

You`re trashing them for the season when they won 98 games. Game over.

Even terrible owners stumble onto a decent team every once in a while; good owners build on that success, the pirates ownership did nothing & knowingly made the team worse to save a few bucks hence why a 98 win team failed to even break .500 the following season. The money for a better team is there; the desire to spend any of it is lacking.

[erieguy]

Originally Posted by UKyank

Even terrible owners stumble onto a decent team every once in a while; good owners build on that success, the pirates ownership did nothing & knowingly made the team worse to save a few bucks hence why a 98 win team failed to even break .500 the following season. The money for a better team is there; the desire to spend any of it is lacking.

The excuses for 2016 were "bridge year" and "financial flexibility".

The excuse for 2017 is "budget tightness".

The excuse for 2018 I expect will be "lower payroll due to lower revenue due to 400k+ less tickets sold than 2016."

The excuses are endless.

[Copanut]

Originally Posted by gmagoo

You`re trashing them for the season when they won 98 games. Game over.

Not trashing, merely saying that after that season, when a team is on the cusp, that's when you spend money to get an "arm". Not the Bucco's, they added no one and cut payroll. From 98 wins to 78, that is one helluva swing.

[prnlvsxy]

They simply can't draft and develop talent.

They have literally the worst results in the division over the last decade.

If you gauge by Wins Above Replacement (bWAR), generally considered to be the the best way to measure all around value at the Majors level, this is the results:

Cards - 86.4
Cubs - 65.3
Brewers - 55.5
Reds - 44.9
Pirates - 41.5

They also have the lowest number of team drafted players in the Majors in the division:

Cards - 40
Cubs - 31
Brewers - 30
Reds - 28
Pirates - 25


So it's not really a money thing. The pirates front office just plain stinks.

[stremba]

gmagoo,


Sure, they had a 98 win season, but so what? What did that get them? Besides, it's what they did AFTER that 98 win season that has people infuriated. Think about the aftermath of that year. Sure, Alvarez was finished here. No quibble with letting him go. Walker, I can even understand; he's an aging player with a history of injury problems. Why, though, when Happ pitched at a Cy Young level, could they not get something done? IIRC, the contract he signed was not exactly a payroll-buster. They could have afforded to match or even better the deal he eventually got.


Since Happ left, though, when they traded Walker, they felt the need to get another left-handed starter to replace him. Walker's trade value was not all that great, so Niese was probably the best they could get. But had they kept Happ, they would not have needed to trade for a lefty starter and could have potentially addressed another weakness, namely the hole at first base left when Alvarez was sent packing and Ramirez retired. Of course we'll never know because the FO botched it, but perhaps Walker plus one or more of those oh-so-precious prospects that might never actually make the majors (and see prnslxlvy's post above; for the Pirates that likelihood is lower than most teams), might actually have yielded a first baseman better than the one sent packing and maybe, just maybe, improved the team after that 98 win season instead of letting it drop to a 78 win team.


Of course, that's just not the way the Pirates do business. They don't give out market-rate contracts to free agents. They don't use prospects as a tool to trade for established players, or at least do so quite rarely. Apparently they don't understand that coming off a 98 win season is the right time to try to make a move to improve upon the team and make a serious run at a championship.


I don't want this to seem like I don't value prospects, but there's a time and place for building the farm system and quite another time and place to tear down that system a bit to help the big club. Following a 98 win season would certainly seem to be a good time to do the latter and trade away some of those prospects. Sure, it's a gamble, but so is holding on to those prospects. How many "can't miss" prospects actually do miss? Quite a high percentage. If a team is poised to have a realistic shot at winning a championship, it certainly seems that trading some of those prospects for immediate help is warranted. The goal is to win the World Series, not to win the best farm system award.


While I hesitate to compare across different sports, consider how the team that plays its games across the river in that new arena does business. They traded draft picks and/or prospects to acquire the likes of Kessel, Daley, and Schultz. Suppose that team in 4-5 years just out and out stinks because of those trades. Do you think anyone is really going to criticize management for making those deals when they led to back to back Stanley Cups? Same goes for the Bucs. Should they ever manage to win a World Series, or even make a serious run at one, I think they will be forgiven if the stink out loud for a few seasons afterward.