PGH seems like a good match.. But what is it really like? (Pittsburgh: townhouses, neighborhood)

[BrianTH]

By the way, although the details of the political philosophy don't in fact matter for the point I was making about Soviet apparatchiks, I think it is interesting to note that the whole idea of a HOA is that when you "buy" property in the HOA you don't really own it in the free and clear sense. Instead, your "ownership" is encumbered by all sorts covenants, ostensibly designed to further the greater good of the community.

Now that isn't really communism, because communism has specific ideological content involving things like class conflict that aren't a part of the HOA mindset (just the opposite, usually). But it is certainly a notable step toward socialism in the broader sense, insofar as instead of strong individual property rights your interests in your nominal property are actually subordinated to the community's interest in the property.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by Copanut

A condo/PUD is a single family home development. They can be attached, detached, or semi-detached, doesn't matter.

Thanks for explaining. I wouldn't want to be in a HOA for a detached home development.

I was just driving home from Cranberry this morning. I don't like how those neighborhoods look so cookie cutter with everyone having the same style fence. When I got into the older North Hill's neighborhoods, like your current township, I enjoyed how every house is different with different fences and landscaping. There's just so much more character in the older neighborhoods as opposed to the HOA developments where everything looks the same. I just don't want to live in a neighborhood where other people tell me what type of fence I can put in my yard. If you like that type of thing, great. It's not for me. I don't think the majority of Pittsburghers are into it.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by Fiddlehead

Nice post. Yes, I think this is definitely a trend. I was pondering the Triangle Area of NC, where apparently the whole landscape has been placed in upscale subdivisions, gated communities, etc. I do see Copanut's point about attached condo communities needing to maintain common areas. I think that is a very nice option for young people, single mothers, and older folks who do not want,need to fix up houses. I also take the point about maintenance. I am going to have to replace the sewer line on my house, and it is gonna cost big $$$. Ouch! That said, I still prefer old fashioned neighborhoods myself, where I can store my "yard cars" and paintball targets where I like .

Greg brings up good points, but I don't think it's a trend that's going to become widespread in the Pittsburgh area. Even if it does become established here, there are enough older neighborhoods in Pittsburgh for people who prefer to not be regulated by neighbors. In areas of the country where most neighborhoods are 100 years newer than Pittsburgh's, I think the problem is that there are few non-HOA options available to people. I don't think that will ever happen in Pittsburgh. It's not like an existing neighborhood can turn HOA.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Hopes

In areas of the country where most neighborhoods are 100 years newer than Pittsburgh's, I think the problem is that there are few non-HOA options available to people.

I should note I also think this is the most serious problem, meaning that if HOAs were just an isolated issue across the country it would be less of a concern. Really, in fact, this is a failure of state and local political authorities insofar as they are allowing HOAs to systematically take over what should be government functions but without the constitutional checks because they have found that allowing that to happen--indeed requiring it to happen--is good politics.

But for the same reason, that is why I am unapologetic about being very direct on what is wrong with HOAs as they stand. Because if we aren't direct about that, it will continue to be the path of least resistance for state and local political authorities to allow this takeover to continue in so many places.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by Katiana

So out of a population of 334,563, there are 4682 people in Pittsburgh from the western US, a grant total of 1.3% of them are from the west, including that behemoth, California. So I don't quite understand how you're hearing all this whining from the westerners.

On the internet silly! From people like you!

Originally Posted by Katiana

Also, I can recall my parents looking for homes, and talking about homes, and the condition of the kitchen always came up. I think the vast majority of people want a decent, workable kitchen.

You've been out of Pittsburgh for way too long. Pittsburghers are notorious for being outdated---not just with clothing fashion but home fashion too. Pittsburghers know they will find 1950s and 1960s kitchens in older homes for sale. If a Pittsburgher wants a better kitchen, they'll buy new construction or plan on remodeling the kitchen when they buy the house. It is common in Pittsburgh for houses to be put on the market----as is. (If it wasn't common, your parents wouldn't have been complaining!) And Pittsburghers are used to that. People coming here from other areas of the country are a little taken aback by the interiors of houses on the market in Pittsburgh. This is a result of Pittsburghers being rather frugal people, not status driven.

Originally Posted by Katiana

As far as people not caring how the neighbors take care of their property, I never heard of such a thing from anyone in Pittsburgh. You're more likely to hear that in Montana.

We care! We just don't care to the extent of people who live in HOAs. We don't want neighbors with junk cars and appliances in their yards. We don't have that where I live, that's for sure. We don't want neighors with three foot weeds in their yard, but we certainly don't care if they edge the lawn, have clover, a wood or plastic fence, etc.

However, I do think the plastic fences are tacky, but I certainly wouldn't try telling a neighbor they couldn't have a plastic fence. Speaking of plastic fences, I've noticed that's all there is in HOA neighborhoods. See! What the HOA's think are tasteful, I think is tacky. I just could never live in a plastic world. It's not for me. If you like it, great!

[Bench Warmer]

Originally Posted by Hopes

Maybe you won't like Pittsburgh afterall. Our housing stock is much older than out west. And MOST Pittsburghers don't really care about how their neighbors take care of property as long as they're not collecting junk or letting their grass grow super high. People from the west who come here house hunting often complain about the outdated interiors, old kitchens, etc. Pittsburgh isnt' filled with manicured neighborhoods---especially in your price range. I'm just being honest. You'll need to come see for yourself.

I know what your saying. The house i lived in back home was over 100 years old. I was just saying, houses out here (phoenix, az) that are 10-20 years or older in non hoa neighborhoods can be brutal.. 3 cars on the front yard.. just clutter.. everywhere.. its nuts! It wasn't like this back home tho..

[fleetiebelle]

We don't want neighors with three foot weeds in their yard, but we certainly don't care if they edge the lawn, have clover, a wood or plastic fence, etc.

I don't know about you, but I think I'd love to get sternly worded letters criticizing how long my garage door was open or that my garbage cans were at the curb for two! hours! more than they should be, or that my front door is painted the wrong shade of green.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by greg42

I think part of this is that difference between a state where every inch is within a municipal entity (as in PA) where such things are regulated like any town may and a state where that is not the case. I don't know for sure, but I can't really imagine the large western states having this setup. Every inch of PA has some kind of town type government (township or borough) which will to greater or lesser degree regulate certain aspects of what can and can't happen to your house or in your yard.

I'm glad Pennsylvania is designed with strong local governments. This way, we'll always have options. Maybe Cranberry is leaning towards requiring new developments to have HOAs, but that's not the case in most other townships. I know of many new developments that aren't HOAs. I'll add this to the list of reasons I oppose switching to an all county government system.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by Bench Warmer

I know what your saying. The house i lived in back home was over 100 years old. I was just saying, houses out here that are 10-20 years or older in non hoa neighborhoods can be brutal.. 3 cars on the front yard.. just clutter.. everywhere.. its nuts!

There's a neighborhood or township right for you here. There are some townships where that sort of thing is more common. West Deer comes to mind. But there are many townships where it's less common and neighbors are successful in getting the township to motivate the isolated offenders.

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by Hopes

On the internet silly! From people like you!

People like me? Produce a post. I have never been in the market for a home in Pittsburgh.

You've been out of Pittsburgh for way too long. Pittsburghers are notorious for being outdated---not just with clothing fashion but home fashion too. Pittsburghers know they will find 1950s and 1960s kitchens in older homes for sale. If a Pittsburgher wants a better kitchen, they'll buy new construction or plan on remodeling the kitchen when they buy the house. It is common in Pittsburgh for houses to be put on the market----as is. (If it wasn't common, your parents wouldn't have been complaining!) And Pittsburghers are used to that. People coming here from other areas of the country are a little taken aback by the interiors of houses on the market in Pittsburgh. This is a result of Pittsburghers being rather frugal people, not status driven.

My father was a native Pittsburgher and my mother lived there most of her life, so I don't get what you're trying to say, esp. in re: to westerners. Though my mom was from Wisconsin, and a lot of people in Beaver Falls thought she was from the great beyond.

We care! We just don't care to the extent of people who live in HOAs. We don't want neighbors with junk cars and appliances in their yards. We don't have that where I live, that's for sure. We don't want neighors with three foot weeds in their yard, but we certainly don't care if they edge the lawn, have clover, a wood or plastic fence, etc.

However, I do think the plastic fences are tacky, but I certainly wouldn't try telling a neighbor they couldn't have a plastic fence. Speaking of plastic fences, I've noticed that's all there is in HOA neighborhoods. See! What the HOA's think are tasteful, I think is tacky. I just could never live in a plastic world. It's not for me. If you like it, great!

So you DO care! I could have sworn you said earlier that "Pittsburghers" (as if everyone in Pittsburgh thinks alike) don't care.

I never expressed my own opinion on HOAs. In fact, I live in a subdivision where the HOA is basically defunct. When someone tried to revive it, the effort failed. It's there on paper only. The city statutes regulate things like non-operative cars, parking campers on the streets, fences (always a contentious issue), and other issues regarding the upkeep of property.