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Wishful thinking. There are hundreds of quotes and letters from all of the above calling themselves Christians. They did not say, however that they wanted America to be a Christian Nation.
Actually, no.
There are hundreds of quotes where the Founding Fathers discuss the principles of Christianity in complimentary fashion. But references to God, to a Supreme Being, to the Almighty, are not automatically Christian references.
The Founding Fathers were free thinkers. That should be abundantly clear since it was their ability to disassociate themselves from the old political systems and to freely examine those systems that allowed them to formulate a new and innovative political system, borrowing what they saw as useful, and discarding what they saw as prohibitive. Christianity was an integral part of the European political/power structure. It is therefore reasonable that the free-thinking Founding Fathers took time to analyze Christian dogma. Benjamin Franklin in his autobiography states outright that he is a Deist. He believes in a Creator. He doesn't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. Thomas Jefferson also states that he doesn't believe in the divinity of Christ. But he believes that Christ existed, and that the teachings of Christ have great value. To be a Christian, you cannot just believe that Christ existed. Many other religions accept the existence of Christ, as an exceptional human being, as a phrophet, even. To be a Christian, you cannot just place great value on the teachings of Christ. To be a Christian, you have to believe in the divinity of Christ, and to accept Christ as your Saviour. You HAVE to do these two things. Many of the Founding Fathers did. Some of the Founding Fathers didn't. And some of the Founding Fathers we don't know if they did or not, because they were deliberately eccliptic about it in their writings.
There are hundreds of quotes where the Founding Fathers discuss the principles of Christianity in complimentary fashion. But references to God, to a Supreme Being, to the Almighty, are not automatically Christian references.
The Founding Fathers were free thinkers. That should be abundantly clear since it was their ability to disassociate themselves from the old political systems and to freely examine those systems that allowed them to formulate a new and innovative political system, borrowing what they saw as useful, and discarding what they saw as prohibitive. Christianity was an integral part of the European political/power structure. It is therefore reasonable that the free-thinking Founding Fathers took time to analyze Christian dogma. Benjamin Franklin in his autobiography states outright that he is a Deist. He believes in a Creator. He doesn't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. Thomas Jefferson also states that he doesn't believe in the divinity of Christ. But he believes that Christ existed, and that the teachings of Christ have great value. To be a Christian, you cannot just believe that Christ existed. Many other religions accept the existence of Christ, as an exceptional human being, as a phrophet, even. To be a Christian, you cannot just place great value on the teachings of Christ. To be a Christian, you have to believe in the divinity of Christ, and to accept Christ as your Saviour. You HAVE to do these two things. Many of the Founding Fathers did. Some of the Founding Fathers didn't. And some of the Founding Fathers we don't know if they did or not, because they were deliberately eccliptic about it in their writings.
Again, you and others rely almost solely on Thomas Jefferson. Why is that? Jefferson himself stated outright that he was a Christian. This, notwithstanding the numerous other claims by the many of the other Founding Fathers that they too, were Christians.
Why do you folks insist on skewing the record? Why? Do I need to prove you wrong? Because I certainly can. Words straight from the horses mouth if you must see.
I notice how you caveat your entire premise with the last four sentences. How convenient. You and Bluefly would get along nicely.
Ben Franklin was 83 yr.s old when he wrote this speech and could barely stand on his feet so he ask another to read it for him .
As George Washington, James Madison Franklin and others sat at the 1787 Consitutional Convention [ I have bookls the libs didn't take ] .
In the begining of the contest with Great Brittain, when we were senseble of danger ,we had daily prayer in this room for the divine protection . Our prayers sir were heard and they were graciously answered . All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending Providence in our favor .
I have lived , sir ,a long time , and the longer I live the more convivncing proofs I see of this truth ; that God governs in the affairs of man . And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice , is it possible that an empire can rise without His aide ?
We have been assured sir, in the sacred writtings ,that ' except the Lord build the house ,they labor in vain that build it' , I firmly beleive this and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Bable .
Speech by Ben Franklin . I also have portriot of Washington kneeling in prayer before going to battle .
The founders were christians .
Because only Christians believe in a God? Because only Christians kneel in prayer?
This is obviously not true.
Benjamin Franklin state unequivocally that he was a Deist. A Deist believes in the existence of a God.
Again, you and others rely almost solely on Thomas Jefferson. Why is that? Jefferson himself stated outright that he was a Christian. This, notwithstanding the numerous other claims by the many of the other Founding Fathers that they too, were Christians.
Why do you folks insist on skewing the record? Why? Do I need to prove you wrong? Because I certainly can. Words straight from the horses mouth if you must see.
I notice how you caveat your entire premise with the last four sentences. How convenient. You and Bluefly would get along nicely.
That poster actually referenced several founders other than Jefferson.
While deeply spiritual men, you can't deny that the core founders were deeply skeptical of orthodox Christianity. Some outright rejected it in favor of a more gnostic relationship to Christ as a non-divine, good person.
We have all acknowledged that they were deeply influenced by Chrisitianity, whether rejecting it or not. We have also proven that simply discussing God, heaven, Jesus, etc... does not equate to embracing the orthodoxy of religion. Most statements used to support this Christian nation myth are rooted in this misunderstanding.
The question becomes, why is it so critical for some to believe that these were all devout Christians who sought to build a Christian promised land?
If they did, why were they so critical of Europe's mixing of religion and government and insistent that people be free to pursue any religion or lack of religion they want?
There is no theocracy in the world that promotes such liberty.
That poster actually referenced several founders other than Jefferson.
While deeply spiritual men, you can't deny that the core founders were deeply skeptical of orthodox Christianity. Some outright rejected it in favor of a more gnostic relationship to Christ as a non-divine, good person.
We have all acknowledged that they were deeply influenced by Chrisitianity, whether rejecting it or not. We have also proven that simply discussing God, heaven, Jesus, etc... does not equate to embracing the orthodoxy of religion. Most statements used to support this Christian nation myth are rooted in this misunderstanding.
The question becomes, why is it so critical for some to believe that these were all devout Christians who sought to build a Christian promised land?
If they did, why were they so critical of Europe's mixing of religion and government and insistent that people be free to pursue any religion or lack of religion they want?
There is no theocracy in the world that promotes such liberty.
Who gives a rat's butt what the religion of the Founders was. I believe it was mostly Deist, but who cares if it was Buddhist, Wiccan or whatever. The nation is not founded on religion and that fact is quite obvious to any intelligent person. You insecure in your own faith individuals that need this type of validation are really pathetic. Go on and worship your Jesus, who was born a Jew, lived as a jew, died a Jew and had his "Last Supper" at a Passover Seder and as the only proof of his existence are tales told by pathetically mortal men.
Last edited by sickofnyc; 06-15-2010 at 02:32 PM..
Who gives a rat's butt what the religion of the Founders was. I believe it was mostly Deist, but who cares if it was Buddhist, Wiccan or whatever. The nation is not founded on religion and that fact is quite obvious to any intelligent person. You insecure in your own faith individuals that need this type of validation are really pathetic. Go on and worship your Jesus, who was born a Jew, lived as a jew, died a Jew had his "Last Supper" at a Passover Seder and as the only proof of his existence are tales told by pathetically mortal men.
Next time don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.
Next time don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.
This issue has been debated in countless threads and since you cannot cure stupid, you will continue to have idiots that really believe that this nation was founded on religion. They do not seem to get that religious principles is merely another term for just, fair, moral and humane principles. Why bother to argue with these right wing knuckle draggers? I see no point.
Last edited by sickofnyc; 06-15-2010 at 02:55 PM..
If any people of other Nations professing the true Christian Religion shall flee to us from the Tiranny or oppression of their persecutors, or from famyne, warres, or the like necessary and compulsarie cause, They shall be entertayned and succoured amongst us, according to that power and prudence god shall give us.
A Coppie of the Liberties of the Massachusets Collonie in New England. December 1641
If any people of other Nations professing the true Christian Religion shall flee to us from the Tiranny or oppression of their persecutors, or from famyne, warres, or the like necessary and compulsarie cause, They shall be entertayned and succoured amongst us, according to that power and prudence god shall give us.
A Coppie of the Liberties of the Massachusets Collonie in New England. December 1641
This settles it. The thread and its supporters are debunked.
You're discussing allegiance to colonial New Engalnd in 1634. We're talking about the founding of a nation a century and a half later.
If you would read this thread, you would know that there is no doubt that Christianity was a significant influence on the founding of this country. Many of the most prominent founders rejected it outright, but it was still the only religion they'd ever known other than Deism.
How could it not be part of the culture, especially back in 1634 with the pioneers just coming over? Everyone derived from nations devastated by the melding of religion and government, and sought to build a new nation with a clearer vision.
So, references to Christ, God, heaven, etc... are quite common and prove nothing.
Last edited by Bluefly; 06-15-2010 at 07:45 PM..
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Bravo!
We're talking about the founding of a nation a century and a half later. 
