Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You are in direct violation of TOS for your personal attacks against me. I honestly thought you were capable of mature intellectual discourse on this subject.
You keep saying "I posted quotes! I posted quotes!" as if that's proof of anything. My entire point was that, I did too. I posted quotes that proved that these men had grave doubts or, in the case of Thomas Jefferson, viscious attacks against Christianity.
So, where does that leave us? These were complex men and I was eager to delve into that complexity with you, but you took the low road - attacking me by calling me a joke and never delving beyond the initial quote gridlock.
I hope you feel good about yourself. You have certainly hurt my feelings with your personal attacks. You should probably study up on that religion you think your country was founded on.
As Thomas Jefferson himself would point out: You are no follower of Christ.
I stopped reading your post after the bolded sentence. Read it. Inhale it. Run it through the filter between your ears. Then, and only then, you may actually see the foolishness of that sentence.
Yes, you did post quotes. But did they prove me wrong? No they did not. Which is what you've been proclaiming all along. Had you stopped at the "reasonable doubt" argument that you posed, I may have at least conceded to gridlock. But you didn't. You insisted that you were right, and that I was wrong, even though the direct quotes proved otherwise.
Ya know how a lot of Olde English letters were signed, "On this day, in the year of our Lord"?
Did you know Thomas Jefferson signed his letters, "On this day, in the year of our Lord Jesus Christ"??
What we abbreviate today as BC/AD, while the rest of the world has been moving onto BCE/CE. If a Jew or a Muslim or a Hindu writes AD or BC proves nothing of their religion. They're just following the standard. Actually, in Israel, you would see CE/BCE, not AD/BC.
Not quite. You have absolutely no clue about the quotes you used to make a point. The perspective is entirely lacking. Allow me to just address one of them (I could pick others too, when we're done with this, if you would like). This is something you quoted:
"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ." The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.
Jefferson never dismissed morals preached by Jesus Christ (For goodness sake, he created a version of the Bible). That makes him as much a Christian as it makes a Mohammedan a Christian, as they also appreciate a lot that Christ had to preach. I like a lot about what Buddha had to say, the philosophies in Buddhism, but that doesn't make me a Buddhist. Is there anything you like about in any other religion assuming you know at least a little about those (Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism...)? No?
To quote Jefferson on the subject: "I consider the doctrines of Jesus as delivered by himself to contain the outlines of the sublimest system of morality that has ever been taught but I hold in the most profound detestation and execration the corruptions of it which have been invented..."
This is no different than Mahatma Gandhi saying... "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
And Gandhi actually walked it. He is one of the very few who dared to turn the other cheek (literally), when hit on one.
Here's another, from Jefferson: "My views are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others"
This is an interesting quote, and worth noting is the first part. Why do you think he brings up "anti-Christian system" into play? Actually, he sounds more and more like my kind of Christian.
Thank you! I can't rep you again, but finally someone who understands Jefferson's complexity on these matters! I tried to explain that earlier and was dismissed.
I should have used the Gandhi statement that you did. That is the most direct parallel to what Jefferson meant by that statement (when understood in the context of his raging anger against the institution of Christianity but his appreciation for Christ's message)
"President Jefferson defends the embargo measures at length, especially in relation to the European powers, and he outlines the internal issues with trade. The President summarizes the military situation and foreign relations with Spain and the Barbary powers."
I stopped reading your post after the bolded sentence. Read it. Inhale it. Run it through the filter between your ears. Then, and only then, you may actually see the foolishness of that sentence.
Yes, you did post quotes. But did they prove me wrong? No they did not. Which is what you've been proclaiming all along. Had you stopped at the "reasonable doubt" argument that you posed, I may have at least conceded to gridlock. But you didn't. You insisted that you were right, and that I was wrong, even though the direct quotes proved otherwise.
I think you're struggling with reading comprehension. I didn't say I posted quotes in that text you highlighted - I was talking about you. And you remain fixated on dissecting the argument rather than engaging in a discussion.
I think if you read what I wrote, you would know that I understand Jefferson on a different level than what you are trying to pass off on him. I have explained this many times before, about how he found inspriation in Christ (he WROTE A VERSION OF THE BIBLE!).
But, to say he was a Christian would be to ignore copius writings and statements he made attacking the religion throughout his life and fighting to keep it from infilatrating the government he helped created. It was, in fact, one of the great struggles of his life after the nation was created.
You can read his statements for yourself, or cling to the simple, out-of-context statements you are. Your choice.
Not quite. You have absolutely no clue about the quotes you used to make a point. The perspective is entirely lacking. Allow me to just address one of them (I could pick others too, when we're done with this, if you would like). This is something you quoted:
"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ." The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.
Jefferson never dismissed morals preached by Jesus Christ (For goodness sake, he created a version of the Bible). That makes him as much a Christian as it makes a Mohammedan a Christian, as they also appreciate a lot that Christ had to preach. I like a lot about what Buddha had to say, the philosophies in Buddhism, but that doesn't make me a Buddhist. Is there anything you like about in any other religion assuming you know at least a little about those (Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism...)? No?
To quote Jefferson on the subject: "I consider the doctrines of Jesus as delivered by himself to contain the outlines of the sublimest system of morality that has ever been taught but I hold in the most profound detestation and execration the corruptions of it which have been invented..."
This is no different than Mahatma Gandhi saying... "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
And Gandhi actually walked it. He is one of the very few who dared to turn the other cheek (literally), when hit on one.
Here's another, from Jefferson: "My views are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others"
This is an interesting quote, and worth noting is the first part. Why do you think he brings up "anti-Christian system" into play? Actually, he sounds more and more like my kind of Christian.
You're playing the same exact game as BlueFly is playing. Dismissing quotes that you don't like won't cut it. I have not engaged in selective quote sourcing, so why are you? The challenge was to provide direct quotes from the founding fathers professing a belief in Christianity, and that's what I did. Did I ever say, or even imply, that those founding fathers believe we should be a Christian nation? No, indeed I did not.
Why are the two of you playing this shell game? You're trying your damndest to provide some semblance of an anti-Christian bent to what is clearly not an anti-Christian group of people or an anti-Christian country.
What we abbreviate today as BC/AD, while the rest of the world has been moving onto BCE/CE. If a Jew or a Muslim or a Hindu writes AD or BC proves nothing of their religion. They're just following the standard. Actually, in Israel, you would see CE/BCE, not AD/BC.
Who else, besides Jefferson, signed their letters in this fashion?
Good avoidance of the Continental Congress action, though
I think you're struggling with reading comprehension. I didn't say I posted quotes in that text you highlighted - I was talking about you. And you remain fixated on dissecting the argument rather than engaging in a discussion.
I think if you read what I wrote, you would know that I understand Jefferson on a different level than what you are trying to pass off on him. I have explained this many times before, about how he found inspriation in Christ (he WROTE A VERSION OF THE BIBLE!).
But, to say he was a Christian would be to ignore copius writings and statements he made attacking the religion throughout his life and fighting to keep it from infilatrating the government he helped created. It was, in fact, one of the great struggles of his life after the nation was created.
You can read his statements for yourself, or cling to the simple, out-of-context statements you are. Your choice.
You need to slow down and re-read. The "...as if that's proof of anything" statment takes the cake. Especially when your entiire argument has been based on a page worth of quotes. Does it get any more farcical? LOL
That was the point I was making. It went right over your head.
AeroDC - Time to stop relying on your quotes since you are, in fact, selective quote sourcing. How do you reconcile their clear statements in opposition to Christianity and its role in government with the religious quotes you favor?
(keep in mind - again - many statements about "God" and "heaven" and such are not Christian)
You completely misinterpret me if you think I'm making some "anti-Christian" angle. Granted, Jefferson said a lot of anti-Christian statements ("Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."), but he was far more complex in his views on the subject.
Discuss that - stop with the attacks and argument analysis.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
lol...uh huh...
