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[quote]With the help therefore of Rushworth, whom we rummaged over for the revolutionary precedents & forms of the Puritans of that day, preserved by him, we cooked up a resolution, somewhat modernizing their phrases, for appointing the 1st day of June, on which the Port bill was to commence, for a day of fasting, humiliation & prayer, to implore heaven to avert from us the evils of civil war, to inspire us with firmness in support of our rights, and to turn the hearts of the King & parliament to moderation & justice. To give greater emphasis to our proposition, we agreed to wait the next morning on Mr. Nicholas, whose grave & religious character was more in unison with the tone of our resolution and to solicit him to move it.[/QUOTE
With the help therefore of Rushworth, whom we rummaged over for the revolutionary precedents & forms of the Puritans of that day, preserved by him, we cooked up a resolution, somewhat modernizing their phrases, for appointing the 1st day of June, on which the Port bill was to commence, for a day of fasting, humiliation & prayer, to implore heaven to avert from us the evils of civil war, to inspire us with firmness in support of our rights, and to turn the hearts of the King & parliament to moderation & justice. To give greater emphasis to our proposition, we agreed to wait the next morning on Mr. Nicholas, whose grave & religious character was more in unison with the tone of our resolution and to solicit him to move it.[/QUOTE
How many times do people have to explain to you that references to God and heaven do not make someone a devout Christian?
Jefferson railed, his entire life, against organized religion and lauded Jesus the man (not the savior) as a noble model of morality. Unless, of course, there's some way to misinterpret Jefferson when he said:
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
And in the version of the Bible he himself wrote:
"We discover [in the gospels] a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication."
If there are ways to interpret these statements that I am missing, I am more than willing to be educated. But they appear very straightforward, especially when understood in the context of his life. In contrast, everything you post is ambiguous references to a broad notion of a higher power and an afterlife - something to which almost every major religion ascribes, including Deists and people like Jefferson who embraced aspects of Christ's teachings but reviled Christianity - and certainly didn't found a nation to be based on an institutional religion he reviled.
If any people of other Nations professing the true Christian Religion shall flee to us from the Tiranny or oppression of their persecutors, or from famyne, warres, or the like necessary and compulsarie cause, They shall be entertayned and succoured amongst us, according to that power and prudence god shall give us.
A Coppie of the Liberties of the Massachusets Collonie in New England. December 1641
How many times do people have to explain to you that references to God and heaven do not make someone a devout Christian?
Jefferson railed, his entire life, against organized religion and lauded Jesus the man (not the savior) as a noble model of morality. Unless, of course, there's some way to misinterpret Jefferson when he said:
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
And in the version of the Bible he himself wrote:
"We discover [in the gospels] a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication."
If there are ways to interpret these statements that I am missing, I am more than willing to be educated. But they appear very straightforward, especially when understood in the context of his life. In contrast, everything you post is ambiguous references to a broad notion of a higher power and an afterlife - something to which almost every major religion ascribes, including Deists and people like Jefferson who embraced aspects of Christ's teachings but reviled Christianity - and certainly didn't found a nation to be based on an institutional religion he reviled.
Quote:
1803 April 21. (Jefferson to Benjamin Rush). "To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; and believing he never claimed any other."[9]
Jefferson did serve as a vestryman in Fredericksville Parish as a young man.[5] As President, Jefferson attended church services in the House of Representatives.[6] After his retirement to Monticello, Jefferson continued to attend church services, riding into Charlottesville to the court-house on horseback carrying a small folding chair.[7]
So, you will not engage in an actual dialogue? I asked you to analyze statements he made about Christianity and you simply post more quotes? Come on. Make it interesting. Engage.
AGAIN - the guy wrote a version of the Bible to highlight the good works of Jesus. So, yes, he was a "Christian", perhaps in the truest sense, but not in any way an orthodox Christian would recognize or acknowledge. Many people are that way today, and you would be the first to say they are not "real Christians".
As has been explained ad nauseum on here, the very quote to which you refer was a shot against Christianity because it had gotten so far from its source.
He did not believe in the core tenant of Christianity - of a Divine Christ - and he certainly didn't set out to bulid a country around mixing religion and government after what they'd witnessed in Europe.
And, as a Christian, I will remind you that personal attacks and insults were not part of Christ's doctrine.
Please explain how you reconcile the statement he made here and others that I posted in opposition to orthodox Christianity.
And, also, please explain the many statements he made in favor of separating church and state, including his emphatic statement that Christianity is not part of the government.
No one said, that I know of, that we should have a theocracy. The title of this thread is "the founding fathers were deists."Despite the OP mispelling Deist, none of that is true. The closest you can get is Jefferson but to act like he was the only founding father is intellectually incompetent.
Freedom of religion is way more important than freedom from religion like the Op'er wanted to convey. I don't need to refute anything I've posted as all of it was the words of the people at the forefront of this nation. Their own words, not mine.
It's strange you think me calling you naive is an attack but it's very telling in that you aren't even sure of your own stance. After all Jefferson was all about religion being between that person and their god. To act as though they, the founding fathers, could've been engaged in some other religion other than Christianity is naive. I wouldn't take that stance if burqas and facing Mecca had been mentioned, if the bible wasn't the clear source for their "freedoms under good."
The only thing scathing that Jefferson spoke of is the use of it by Tyrannical demagogues to further their own cause. The use of that sacred and gentle religion to further lies and the antithesis of the freedom of man and their natural rights.
No one said, that I know of, that we should have a theocracy. The title of this thread is "the founding fathers were deists."Despite the OP mispelling Deist, none of that is true. The closest you can get is Jefferson but to act like he was the only founding father is intellectually incompetent.
Freedom of religion is way more important than freedom from religion like the Op'er wanted to convey. I don't need to refute anything I've posted as all of it was the words of the people at the forefront of this nation. Their own words, not mine.
It's strange you think me calling you naive is an attack but it's very telling in that you aren't even sure of your own stance. After all Jefferson was all about religion being between that person and their god. To act as though they, the founding fathers, could've been engaged in some other religion other than Christianity is naive. I wouldn't take that stance if burqas and facing Mecca had been mentioned, if the bible wasn't the clear source for their "freedoms under good."
The only thing scathing that Jefferson spoke of is the use of it by Tyrannical demagogues to further their own cause. The use of that sacred and gentle religion to further lies and the antithesis of the freedom of man and their natural rights.
Yes, I misspelled the word Deist which of course completely invalidates my premise.
By the way, enjoy your "freedoms under good."
Part of the reason for the stance I took with my post is the knowledge that many of the founding fathers were also Freemason. The Freemasons are a secret fraternal order that demand of their members that they believe in the idea of a supreme being or God.
In the Freemason weltanshauung God was seen as and called The Supreme Architect of the Universe. It was believed that he set up the natural laws and designed the universe in such a way as to make it self regulating. They did not believe that God interfered with the world nor intervened in the affairs of men. These ideas are so closely aligned with the tenets of Deism that many believe that freemasonry is their source.
Because masons were sworn to secrecy, they led double lives. They may have called themselves Christians and may even have attended church. They may have even openly admired the teachings of Jesus recognizing their utility, but behind the closed doors of "The Lodge" they remained strict Deists worshipping The Great Architect.
The mistake that I made with this thread is in asserting that they were all Deists. Some were not and were not masons, but it's facinating to note just how many were.
George Washington, Ben Franklin, James Madison, John Hancock, Thomas Paine, and Paul Revere were all masons and most likely Deists.
..... Part of the reason for the stance I took with my post is the knowledge that many of the founding fathers were also Freemason. The Freemasons are a secret fraternal order that demand of their members that they believe in the idea of a supreme being or God.
In the Freemason weltanshauung God was seen as and called The Supreme Architect of the Universe. It was believed that he set up the natural laws and designed the universe in such a way as to make it self regulating. They did not believe that God interfered with the world nor intervened in the affairs of men. These ideas are so closely aligned with the tenets of Deism that many believe that freemasonry is their source.
Because masons were sworn to secrecy, they led double lives. They may have called themselves Christians and may even have attended church. They may have even openly admired the teachings of Jesus recognizing their utility, but behind the closed doors of "The Lodge" they remained strict Deists worshipping The Great Architect.
The mistake that I made with this thread is in asserting that they were all Deists. Some were not and were not masons, but it's facinating to note just how many were.
George Washington, Ben Franklin, James Madison, John Hancock, Thomas Paine, and Paul Revere were all masons and most likely Deists.
The first quoted paragraph is correct. The second quoted paragraph is far from the truth. God is not called the Supreme Architect. The Supreme Architect is a term used in lodges that is to be interpreted by each member to represent the divinity according to his own beliefs. The next paragraph asserts that Masons lead double lives. Pure garbage. Masons can be Christians, Mulsims, Buddhists, Deists or whatever. They do have to assert a belief in a Supreme Being, but the Lodge is NOT a church and religion is NOT practiced there. No matter what links are posted, these are true statements about Freemasons.
I think that some of the founding fathers may have actually been agnostic or atheist, but would never say so in public or in writing. After all, they were politicians. How many current politicians admit to having no religion? Do we have any evidence that the founding fathers under discussion were active church members? Did they attend regularly? Did they teach Sunday School classes?
For those founding fathers who were Masons, admitting to being agnostic or atheistic would have meant they would have to leave the Lodge, something which George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock and Paul Revere would have been unwilling to do. Thomas Jefferson was not a Freemason.
What these men DID agree on was "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ... "
The country was clearly established as a secular government. The religious views of the founding fathers do not change that.
Actually, I am highly educated on the writings of the founding fathers. They were deeply spiritual and complex men. I have read many of their original materials and I can assure you, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that they fought tooth and nail to keep this country from being founded upon a religion.
The principle of a God / higher power is not the same as that of a religion, and while they most certainly put a spiritual core to our nation (the atheists are wrong on that front) they most certainly did not make it Christian - at least no more than they made it Native American.
In fact, they did all they could to make sure anyone could pursue any spiritual course. Of course Christianity played into their lives since it was still a non-global world and they escaped nations run by corrupt Christian governments.
Before you respond with another attack (sinner...), read the quotes I posted on page 2 and ask yourself whether the simple mythology of a "Christian nation" you are trying to spread here is really accurate - or whether there's a whole lot more complexity afoot to let people do whatever they want spiritually - Christian (as most did in that day) or otherwise (as many of our nation's leaders did).
So many statements from the founders support that basis of our nation over your story about one religion.
"Highly educated"? Doubtful. You have no clue what you are talking about. You haven't, obviously, read one word of what they have written.
Get a life. You are one of the most confused people I have ever run across
The first two Presidents of the United States were patrons of religion--George Washington was an Episcopal vestryman, and John Adams described himself as "a church going animal." Both offered strong rhetorical support for religion. In his Farewell Address of September 1796, Washington called religion, as the source of morality, "a necessary spring of popular government," while Adams claimed that statesmen "may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand." Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, the third and fourth Presidents, are generally considered less hospitable to religion than their predecessors, but evidence presented in this section shows that, while in office, both offered religion powerful symbolic support.
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