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You're out because you've been taken to the woodshed. You insist on "your" quotes while tossing mine to the curb. That's what I call Classy Debating.
I have not denied your quotes or any quotes from a culture that was predominantly Christian and emerged from Europe (a Christian continent at the time). There's a great deal of Christian influence at that time period in human development.
But you made an assertion as fact about the religious nature of the founders and others have made assertions about their intention of building a nation based on one religion, and I merely needed to provide enough evidence for reasonable doubt for the jury of your peers to dismiss the case.
The burden of proof lies with you, and so long as evidence exists that the founders of our nation were, in large part, very skeptical of the religion you attribute to them and spoke eloquently and prolifically about ensuring people would be free to worship God or not in whatever way they choose (which goes against a theocratic goal of making people adhere to one religon's laws), proving your case will be impossible.
I have not denied your quotes or any quotes from a culture that was predominantly Christian and emerged from Europe (a Christian continent at the time). There's a great deal of Christian influence at that time period in human development.
But you made an assertion as fact about the religious nature of the founders and others have made assertions about their intention of building a nation based on one religion, and I merely needed to provide enough evidence for reasonable doubt for the jury of your peers to dismiss the case.
The burden of proof lies with you, and so long as evidence exists that the founders of our nation were, in large part, very skeptical of the religion you attribute to them and spoke eloquently and prolifically about ensuring people would be free to worship God or not in whatever way they choose, proving your case will be impossible.
I don't have a case to prove. The words of the Founding Father's themselves are screaming right in your ear, you just choose to ignore them in order to further your leftist agenda.
I don't have a case to prove. The words of the Founding Father's themselves are screaming right in your ear, you just choose to ignore it in order to further your leftist agenda.
You ignored all quotes that Bluefly provided. Is there any that you disagreed or agreed with? Try again.
I don't have a case to prove. The words of the Founding Father's themselves are screaming right in your ear, you just choose to ignore them in order to further your leftist agenda.
Do you even read what I write? Your responses make no sense. I have already explained that I most certainly do not ignore Christian influence on this nation. I could use your same argument - the words of the founding fathers are screaming right in yoru ear, you just choose to ignore them.
Just take one of those quotes:
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law." - Thomas Jefferson, 1814
That's right from his own letter to a colleague ranting about how priests were trying to take over and destroy the government they'd created. So, have a mature, intellectual discussion. Get beyond these "leftist agenda" garbage attacks. That's just a cheap out and has nothing to do with reality. Read the quotes I posted or my subsequent responses - really read them - and explain how they fit with your agenda. These were complex men who understood both the power and devastation of religion.
You ignored all quotes that Bluefly provided. Is there any that you disagreed or agreed with? Try again.
I didn't ignore anything. Go back and read my response. I laid out quite clearly why none of those proved anything other than astounding insight by our forefathers. Her post was total and absolute writhing in defeat. Zeke provided a challenge. I met that challenge. Her response was those quotes. While totally relevant to the OP, they were not relevant to the post in which she was responding to.
I didn't ignore anything. Go back and read my response. I laid out quite clearly why none of those proved anything other than astounding insight by our forefathers. Her post was total and absolute writhing in defeat. Zeke provided a challenge. I met that challenge. Her response was those quotes. While totally relevant to the OP, they were not relevant to the post in which she was responding too.
Ummm.... you claimed the founders were Christians. I provided quotes from their own mouths stating their own skepticism or, in some cases, outright dismissal of Christianity for their personal paths.
That's a different topic than whether they founded this nation to be based on Christian law.
Do you even read what I write? Your responses make no sense. I have already explained that I most certainly do not ignore Christian influence on this nation. I could use your same argument - the words of the founding fathers are screaming right in yoru ear, you just choose to ignore them.
Just take one of those quotes:
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law." - Thomas Jefferson, 1814
That's right from his own letter to a colleague ranting about how priests were trying to take over and destroy the government they'd created. So, have a mature, intellectual discussion. Get beyond these "leftist agenda" garbage attacks. That's just a cheap out and has nothing to do with reality. Read the quotes I posted or my subsequent responses - really read them - and explain how they fit with your agenda. These were complex men who understood both the power and devastation of religion.
Engage intellectually. Come on.
I did read the quotes. Every single one of them when you posted them earlier. Those quotes were in response to my post that wholly and completely made a disaster of Zeke's challenge. Those posts did nothing to prove me wrong. Go back and read. You think you're queen of this debate. I'm here to tell you that you're not. Changing horses mid-stream you will not do.
I did read the quotes. Every single one of them when you posted them earlier. Those quotes were in response to my post that wholly and completely made a disaster of Zeke's challenge. Those posts did nothing to prove me wrong. Go back and read. You think you're queen of this debate. I'm here to tell you that you're not. Changing horses mid-stream you will not do.
Alright. So I guess you're going to reduce this to a "debate about the debate". Whatever. I was hoping for more from you.
I'll leave you be. The engaging banter I sought shall not be found here. If statements exist from the people who built this nation refuting your "Christian" statements, then clearly the answer is not nearly as devisive and clear as you make it out to be.
Again, burden of proof is on you to prove your case that these were all devout Christians. I have proven otherwise by the words they spoke and wrote.
Actually, I am highly educated on the writings of the founding fathers. They were deeply spiritual and complex men. I have read many of their original materials and I can assure you, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that they fought tooth and nail to keep this country from being founded upon a religion.
The principle of a God / higher power is not the same as that of a religion, and while they most certainly put a spiritual core to our nation (the atheists are wrong on that front) they most certainly did not make it Christian - at least no more than they made it Native American.
In fact, they did all they could to make sure anyone could pursue any spiritual course. Of course Christianity played into their lives since it was still a non-global world and they escaped nations run by corrupt Christian governments.
Before you respond with another attack (sinner...), read the quotes I posted on page 2 and ask yourself whether the simple mythology of a "Christian nation" you are trying to spread here is really accurate - or whether there's a whole lot more complexity afoot to let people do whatever they want spiritually - Christian (as most did in that day) or otherwise (as many of our nation's leaders did).
So many statements from the founders support that basis of our nation over your story about one religion.
They espoused free markets and "frugal" governments too. I don't suppose we need to define frugal for you. It's not the type of government you've found yourself indulged in in the past 2 years.
Quote:
: characterized by or reflecting economy in the use of resources
Stay on topic BigJon and, if you must hijack a thread, at least acknowledge that excessive federal spending goes back at least 10 years in recent times.
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