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Bull. I've already stated in this very thread that I work with a predominantly hispanic population. The schoolaged children often speak perfectly fluent English free from grammatical and articulation errors. In fact, they often serve as interpreters for their non-English speaking parents, even as young as 5-6 years of age. I have never met an American born Asian that didn't speak proper English, but I will admit that I don't have vast personal experience with this population either. Regardless, BOTH groups you refer to are ESL and grew up in homes where English was not (or rarely) spoken with any regularity. What are blacks' problem that they can't speak proper English? They aren't typically bilingual. Stop making excuses simply because you're black too. We, as a society, should promote and demand properly spoken English because that is what is necessary in order to succeed in life. Simply pointing out these problems in the black community doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in other pockets and segments of society either, but this thread is specifically about BLACK vernacular... something to which you seem to take great offense.
ETA: Let me ask you this, do you honestly believe that you would be hired by ANY reputable employer as a SLP if you spoke only ebonics?
That is YOUR experience. In my experience, US born (and even 3rd or 4th generation) Hispanic and Asian children from lower socioeconomic housleholds do produce phonological and articulation errors; these are not ESL students (whom I happen to tutor). I did not state that ALL US born Hispanics and Asians produce these errors. Just as it is ridiculous to state that ALL Black Americans produce phonological/articulation errors.
The issue that I take with the focus being on AAVE is that people usually fixate on the extremes. Most middle class and over Black Americans either do not speak AAVE or are able to effectively code-switch based upon the sitaution. I know A LOT of Black people and AAVE is not very common amongst my family, friends or associates. It bothers me that ALL Black Americans are painted with a broad brush based upon the extremes (and it always tends to be the negative extremes only)
And regarding your question about being hired as an SLP speaking AAVE. The answer would be no. But I have seen people with very thick accents being hired as SLPs, something which I also would not recommend or want for children. One of my goals as an SLP will be to work with underprivileged populations (of any race/ethnicity)
And just because you claim it to exist doesn't make it so. People expect that non-native English speakers will have grammatical and articulation errors when English is NOT their first language. Why don't you comprehend that?
And stop with claiming that these are disorders, they are patently not. They are phonological differences commonly seen amongst non-native English speakers. You could benefit from knowledge of phonological representation in bilinguals to help you differentiate between the phonologically disordered and those expressing phonological differences secondary to their status as non-native English speakers. I would seriously question the education you're receiving from your graduate program if you cannot differentiate between the two.
I will take the knowledge from my Master's program over your ancedotal jibberish.
Phonological disorders refer to articulation errors that are inappropriate for a child's age group. Its as simple as that. The phonological disorders that are seen amongst native English speakers can be a result of speech and language related issues in the home as well as issues related to poverty (amongst other causes)
Indeed ... One of them thar fellers amongst the students in me American History Class up an says " I wants tah "ax a querstion" !
Now dat was some kinda semester I tells yah ! I nevva seed sech lurnin in all me born days ! WEEEEEEE Dogies ! .... Ole Jethro Bodine wudda been most proud ! HARRRRRRRR ! Harr !
Some whites don't speak proper English, either. I remember translating a video transcript recently where that IT guy talked like a drunk or retard, frankly
Anyway, I guess it would also help kids if they had to wear school uniforms.
I will take the knowledge from my Master's program over your ancedotal jibberish.
Phonological disorders refer to articulation errors that are inappropriate for a child's age group. Its as simple as that. The phonological disorders that are seen amongst native English speakers can be a result of speech and language related issues in the home as well as issues related to poverty (amongst other causes)
You honestly cannot differentiate between a phonological error made secondary to being a non-native English speaker and those of English-only monolingual speakers and you plan to work with children? WOW. Accents, which are the unique way that speech is pronounced by a group of people speaking the same language, are NOT a speech or language disorder. Yet, you equate this to a child who exhibits cluster reductions (dropping of a phoneme such as saying 'bake' instead of 'brake') or fronting of speech sounds such as saying 'dame' instead of 'game'. Those are phonological disorders, something you should have learned in your graduate program. Have you even taken your Phon D class yet??
Anecdotal jibberish? I think I know what I'm talking about thankyouverymuch.
You honestly cannot differentiate between a phonological error made secondary to being a non-native English speaker and those of English-only monolingual speakers and you plan to work with children? WOW. Accents, which are the unique way that speech is pronounced by a group of people speaking the same language, are NOT a speech or language disorder. Yet, you equate this to a child who exhibits cluster reductions (dropping of a phoneme such as saying 'bake' instead of 'brake') or fronting of speech sounds such as saying 'dame' instead of 'game'. Those are phonological disorders, something you should have learned in your graduate program. Have you even taken your Phon D class yet??
Anecdotal jibberish? I think I know what I'm talking about thankyouverymuch.
If you knew what you were talking about you would know that native English speakers of different ethnicities (US born and of US born parents) have ethnic specific phonological disorders as I have listed numerous times in this thread.
As with some African Americans who speak AAVE, some Hispanic Americans speak "Chicano English" which has distinct phonological disorders such as the devoicing of the final consonants such as /z/ for /s/ in words like toys, the use of /ch/ for /sh/, hypernasalization (usually happens with Puerto Rican populations), /t/ for /th/ in words like think, /y/ for /j/ in words like just.
These are characteristics of phonological and articulation disorders that exist in the Hispanic US born native speakers. What ever it is that you do, hopefully you do not have access to African American children with your obvious bias.
If you knew what you were talking about you would know that native English speakers of different ethnicities (US born and of US born parents) have ethnic specific phonological disorders as I have listed numerous times in this thread.
As with some African Americans who speak AAVE, some Hispanic Americans speak "Chicano English" which has distinct phonological disorders such as the devoicing of the final consonants such as /z/ for /s/ in words like toys, the use of /ch/ for /sh/, hypernasalization (usually happens with Puerto Rican populations), /t/ for /th/ in words like think, /y/ for /j/ in words like just.
These are characteristics of phonological and articulation disorders that exist in the Hispanic US born native speakers. What ever it is that you do, hopefully you do not have access to African American children with your obvious bias.
Disorder is a harsh word. It is absolutely normal that Hispanics pronounce English differently, especially when Spanish is their mother tongue.
The funny thing is that 300 years ago it would have been considered totally normal that groups have their distinct variety of the language, including pronunciation. But now we have that exaggerated standardization that to a certain extent tries to limit natural progress and change, from which language had never been exempted up until a few hundred years ago. Because of the media and writing now people can say this is right and this is wrong, which was impossible in the past.
Here in Portugal there are many immigrants from African countries and some of them speak a kind of Portuguese that is really hard to understand. But I don't consider that a real problem.
Disorder is a harsh word. It is absolutely normal that Hispanics pronounce English differently, especially when Spanish is their mother tongue.
The funny thing is that 300 years ago it would have been considered totally normal that groups have their distinct variety of the language, including pronunciation. But now we have that exaggerated standardization that to a certain extent tries to limit natural progress and change, from which language had never been exempted up until a few hundred years ago. Because of the media and writing now people can say this is right and this is wrong, which was impossible in the past.
Here in Portugal there are many immigrants from African countries and some of them speak a kind of Portuguese that is really hard to understand. But I don't consider that a real problem.
I "get" that but the use of the word "disorder" to describe phonological errors is not my invention. It is how these errors are classified in SLP.
If you knew what you were talking about you would know that native English speakers of different ethnicities (US born and of US born parents) have ethnic specific phonological disorders as I have listed numerous times in this thread.
As with some African Americans who speak AAVE, some Hispanic Americans speak "Chicano English" which has distinct phonological disorders such as the devoicing of the final consonants such as /z/ for /s/ in words like toys, the use of /ch/ for /sh/, hypernasalization (usually happens with Puerto Rican populations), /t/ for /th/ in words like think, /y/ for /j/ in words like just.
These are characteristics of phonological and articulation disorders that exist in the Hispanic US born native speakers. What ever it is that you do, hopefully you do not have access to African American children with your obvious bias.
Bias? I have repeatedly stated that in order to succeed in life, we should be teaching black kids who speak AAVE/ebonics the ability to code switch. They need to be able to speak proper English if they want to be gainfully employed later in life and not stuck in minimum wage jobs. You keep attempting to deflect to non-native English speakers. Well, last I checked, the articulation patterns and errors seen amongst non-native English speakers are not preventing ESL groups from succeeding in life. Poor English skills ARE preventing blacks from succeeding, however. Why do you want to prevent blacks from gaining the skills they will need to succeed in life? Do you despise your own ethnic group so much that you need to make excuses for them or compare them to people whose English speaking skills are not their primary language? The comparison is absurd and your insistence at making this comparison leads me to believe that you don't feel that blacks are capable of speaking proper English. Very sad.
I stand by my assertion that articulations errors exhibited secondary to English being a secondary language are phonological errors, not a disorder. You can make all the excuses in the book, but the fact remains that a phonological disorder is a communication disorder characterized by failure to use age and dialect appropriate sounds in speaking, with errors occurring in the selection, production, or articulation of sounds. Errors made that are dialectally appropriate are NOT DISORDERS. Maybe once you take your Phon D class you'll understand better.
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"Ax ME Iffin I Gives Ah Rats AZZZZZZZZ" ! What !
On The Money !
