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1. The universe is not eternal. You can know this because of the 2nd law of thermodynics, as well as the fact that you cannot pass an infinite amount of time. If the universe was eternal, that would have had to take place to get to now.
2. Since the universe had a beginning, we must conclude it was caused by something. You could argue that whatever caused the universe to exist was in turn caused by something prior, but at some point you must have an ultimate beginning cause that was not caused by another cause. To suggest otherwise is to suggest an infinite regression of causes. That's impossible because without a first cause none of the rest would exist.
3. This "cause" of the universe is a creator. This is logically deduced.
Can you give us a better explanation?
Your point?
You are assuming the "creator" was an intelligent being in the sense that universe was created as a conscientious act. It could have just as easily been a combination of processes on the chemical and physical level that came together in such a way that allowed the universe to be created.
Some things are planned and some things happen based on probability. Nobody has yet to offer any concrete evidence that there was some sort of "Divine" plan that created the universe.
Keep in mind that religion was created during a time that the human race had little understanding of the world that they lived in. As science has advanced it has disproved many things that were once considered critical tenets of religious faith for example the belief that all the planets in the solar system rotated around the earth. Or, that the earth itself was flat.
On the contrary the biggest fairy tales today are the different religious faiths practiced around the world. They also breed a tremendous amount of hatred ignorance and hostility toward other human beings.
On the contrary the biggest fairy tales today are the different religious faiths practiced around the world. They also breed a tremendous amount of hatred ignorance and hostility toward other human beings.
The story of creation in the bible is an origin of sexism. Later in the bible, Paul claims that man is superior to women because man was created before the woman!
Yet again, there's arguments in this thread that has nothing to do with evolution.
Evolution has nothing to do with the beginning of the universe, it only deals with the process of genetic change in living beings.
Anyways, she's absolutely correct. Seeing how evolution is the basis of nearly all modern science, evolution absolutely SHOULD be taught in public schools.
Creation can be taught, but only in religious studies elective.
Notice that in the "creationism" debate I'm not arguing for Christianity or any other religion?
The only problem with this claim is that it is utterly and demonstrably false. All you are arguing is for a religious story for the origin of the universe.
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Except that the eternal creator sits outside of space/time.
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Now how did that creator get there?
He's eternal.
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Does it have to? Do we need to know how God's power worked to create the universe?
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It was created.
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Explain it then. Exactly how did the universe get here without a creator?
Really, if you want to make stuff up about what your argument is, "kiddo", you'd be better off doing it somewhere that your previous statements can't be reproduced to demonstrate exactly how flagrant your fabrications are.
Oh, good. I wonder why you felt compelled to make the point in thread about evolution, but...
And "God did it" is a legitimate answer? It explains nothing.
Do you have a scientific answer that comes close? The big bang is the closest I've heard...and that doesn't answer the question of what was there before it.
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For the origin of life, there are some pretty good hypotheses out there. We'll probably never know for sure. That's OK. We also don't know what Caesar ate for breakfast before crossing Rubicon - we're not even sure which river the Rubicon actually was - but we're still pretty sure the Great Roman Civil War happened.
The origin of the universe is a more interesting problem, of course. In classical metaphysics, the Universe is per definition closed. We can't observe outside it. Making "origin" almost a meaningless phrase.
If you want to postulate a Creator getting the ball rolling, well - feel free. It's unprovable and unfalsifiable, of course, but it can make for interesting speculation.
It's also the only legitimate answer we've really got. If you can give me a better answer, knock yourself out.
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Originally Posted by jojajn
The creation story not only explains the origin of the earth but the origin of the sun, stars, plants, animals, and man. The order of this creation story, as given in Genesis chapt. 1, is in direct conflict with the theory of evolution.
It contradicts the order of accepted scientific theory of the big bang, etc. And, of course, the rise of life. I'm aware of that.
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Originally Posted by psulions2007
You still don't explain, or choose to ignore, how said creator got there while dismissing the idea that the multiverse could be eternal itself.
The Bible has always taught that God is eternal. Having said that, the reasonable conclusion of study of causality would be that if everything is caused, the first cause couldn't have been. Scientists themsevles argue that life can't come from non-life...except the first life that formed in a "primordial soup".
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You can't have it both ways.
Tell that to the abiogenesis believers.
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Originally Posted by HistorianDude
No. It does not. Since entropy is a energy divided by a temperature, it is reset every time the universe passes through a singularity such as the one that commenced the Big Bang.
Nothing. The universe is eternal and uncreated.
So you're willing to make up a fairy tale of the universe passing through a singularity but you think the bigger envelope containing the multi-verses is eternal? I can't believe in an eternal universe. What started it all?
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Nonsense. We dismiss them because they are not science. There are other ideas that we also dismiss that are neither science nor religion.
At least according to your definition. You also think grasping to a crazy belief of evolution or pulsating universe, or multi-verses is "science" despite a complete lack of evidence.
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It is eternal and uncreated.
Sounds like you've got some strong faith there.
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Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost
Do you believe in this theory? Why? Would you mind explaining it to me, how the second law of thermodynamics proves it all, and voids every other possibility?
The 2nd law of thermodynics, entropy, says that energy is "wearing down". In an eternal universe, or infinite amount of time, the usable energy in the universe would have "run down" by now. Thus, we know it is not eternal, but instead had a starting point.
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May be it has been around forever, or is cyclical in nature, doing it on its own?
It couldn't have been here forever for the above reason. Even if it is cyclical, what started it?
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No, I can't dismiss things that don't exist. Religions don't have theories. They have stories and myths. Do you now see why I keep asking how you differentiate between a story and a theory.
You've obviously never spent time in a Seminary classroom.
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And it is the only context you feel comfortable with. You're not here to discuss, much less to dismiss, evolution, are you?
Am I here to dismiss it? Yes. I do not believe in it.
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Where did you get the idea of a Creator being necessary? What if the Creator doesn't have the "form" you imagine?
I believe he has revealed himself to mankind.
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Originally Posted by JazzyTallGuy
You are assuming the "creator" was an intelligent being in the sense that universe was created as a conscientious act. It could have just as easily been a combination of processes on the chemical and physical level that came together in such a way that allowed the universe to be created.
Some things are planned and some things happen based on probability. Nobody has yet to offer any concrete evidence that there was some sort of "Divine" plan that created the universe.
I covered necessary and sufficient cause in another thread on here. Search for it. Basically put, if both necessary and sufficient cause are present, it automatically happens. The fact that we exist now, and the universe didn't begin an infinite amount of time ago shows that there was an intelligent mind that decided to create it when it did.
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Keep in mind that religion was created during a time that the human race had little understanding of the world that they lived in. As science has advanced it has disproved many things that were once considered critical tenets of religious faith for example the belief that all the planets in the solar system rotated around the earth. Or, that the earth itself was flat.
Christianity and the Bible have certainly never taught that the earth was flat, or that it was the center of the solar system. There have been religious leaders that taught that...I won't argue that. But as a whole, it's not supported by the Bible.
Do you have a scientific answer that comes close? The big bang is the closest I've heard...and that doesn't answer the question of what was there before it.
It's also the only legitimate answer we've really got. If you can give me a better answer, knock yourself out.
It contradicts the order of accepted scientific theory of the big bang, etc. And, of course, the rise of life. I'm aware of that.
The Bible has always taught that God is eternal. Having said that, the reasonable conclusion of study of causality would be that if everything is caused, the first cause couldn't have been. Scientists themsevles argue that life can't come from non-life...except the first life that formed in a "primordial soup".
Tell that to the abiogenesis believers.
So you're willing to make up a fairy tale of the universe passing through a singularity but you think the bigger envelope containing the multi-verses is eternal? I can't believe in an eternal universe. What started it all?
At least according to your definition. You also think grasping to a crazy belief of evolution or pulsating universe, or multi-verses is "science" despite a complete lack of evidence.
Sounds like you've got some strong faith there.
The 2nd law of thermodynics, entropy, says that energy is "wearing down". In an eternal universe, or infinite amount of time, the usable energy in the universe would have "run down" by now. Thus, we know it is not eternal, but instead had a starting point.
It couldn't have been here forever for the above reason. Even if it is cyclical, what started it?
You've obviously never spent time in a Seminary classroom.
Am I here to dismiss it? Yes. I do not believe in it.
I believe he has revealed himself to mankind.
I covered necessary and sufficient cause in another thread on here. Search for it. Basically put, if both necessary and sufficient cause are present, it automatically happens. The fact that we exist now, and the universe didn't begin an infinite amount of time ago shows that there was an intelligent mind that decided to create it when it did.
Christianity and the Bible have certainly never taught that the earth was flat, or that it was the center of the solar system. There have been religious leaders that taught that...I won't argue that. But as a whole, it's not supported by the Bible.
Do you think Bible tells you everything that you need to know to argue against evolution?
A well rounded education would offer the THEORY of evolution, as well as the THEORY of creationism.
Wow, if only people knew what a scientific theory really was, they'd know how utterly ridiculous the above statement is.
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