Trayvon Martin Case Updates: 2 Judges Recuse, "graphic pictures" of Zimmerman's Injuries, Bond set at $150K (illegal, suspect)
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You keep attempting to equate bad decisions to crimes. You can't seem to get it through your head that following someone is not a crime, even when it is a terrible decision. Assaulting someone is a crime. And if you assault someone and they have a gun, there is a good chance that they will shoot you.
My point about the walk home, was simply to state that Martin was not simply walking home. If he had just walked home, he would have been in his house for over half an hour before the time he was shot. For whatever reason, Martin did not go home. And this wasn't some nice weather where he was taking a carefree stroll. This was a night where it was cool and rainy, so why would he spend about 35 minutes longer in the rain than was necessary?
My point is, I don't believe Zimmerman had intended to just shoot Martin for no reason, if you listen to the tape, he lost sight of Martin and it sounds like he stops walking altogether for a while, and is concerned that if he tells the dispatcher where he lives, that Martin might hear. He simply doesn't sound like some kind of depraved lunatic, and had the dispatcher kept talking to him, he probably would have just stayed on the line, not moving, till the police got there. I mean, he called 911 to report Martin, it wasn't like he was just out walking the streets looking for criminals where he could pretend he was the cops.
This picture of Zimmerman as any sort of aggressor, simply doesn't make much sense. If you apply any logic to the situation at all, it seems pretty obvious that Martin was upset that Zimmerman was following him, and then basically started an argument with Zimmerman, which ended up with Martin punching Zimmerman and jumping on top of him, at which time Zimmerman shot him.
The only piece of evidence that seems possible to be able to contradict the idea that Trayvon was the aggressor, would be the audio tape where someone is crying for help(not just regular help, but a stressed help). But the question is, why would Trayvon be calling for help, because it seems to me from the evidence that Trayvon was by far winning the fight.
It just doesn't make any sense otherwise.
You are trying to raise doubt as to what Trayvon was doing. It's only a small step from your questions about why it took him so long to walk home to "he was casing houses". Perhaps, instead, he was having a discussion with his girlfriend that he did not want to have in front of his family, so he dawdled, maybe even stopped for a while.
The dispatcher is trained on how to handle these calls. Do not blame the dispatcher for this. Your speculation is just that, speculation. It has no evidence behind it AT ALL.
Your "logic" is not "logical". It does not seem "obvious" to me.
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Originally Posted by Tall_Rep
it wasn't coming from police...it was coming from the 911 operator. And no it wasn't a warning.
It came from an employee of the police department, who may have been a poice officer. It was pretty clear GZ was supposed to quit following Trayvon.
So far the only statement from someone with actual knowledge of the facts is from Zimmerman himself, and keep in mind that he made this statement before any other eyewitness had given their statement. By that I mean, he had no idea if anyone would be contradicting his statement, so he is more likely to have stated what he knows as fact. He stated he was returning to his vehicle when TM made contact with him from the rear. He said TM said, " Why are you following me?" GZ replied, "What are you doing here?" Before anything else could be said TM popped GM in the mouth and the rest is history. So far there has been no credible evidence to the contrary.
Zimmerman indeed knows exactly what transpired, but that doesn't mean he's been truthful about it. We will likely never know what happened in the seconds before Martin allegedly began beating his ass. The only other person who knows is dead, and that's a fact that GZ has working in his favor.
Did you never play the telephone game when you were a kid? Do you know how unreliable eyewitness testimony is? It's about probability, the weight of the evidence, looking at everything as a whole, etc. Even taking into account the witnesses' changes, they don't really hurt Zimmerman - they're just less supportive. Looking at everything at a whole supports Zimmerman at this point. The prosecution seems to be hanging its hat on
1) the gf's testimony (vague and ambiguous and untrustworthy at best).
2) the fact that Z had inconsistencies in his 5 re-tellings of the story to the cops.
That's mighty weak for a 2d degree murder charge. 1) is too suspect because of the huge length of time before she talked, the fact she had contact with outside parties before talking to the cops, the fact she has a motive to lie, and the fact she didn't actually see what was going on but only surmised it based on vague sounds. 2) is hardly surprising given that you'd be in shock after an event like that and nobody's memory is perfect and we all change stories in everyday life. Also, I'd be willing to concede Zim lied to make himself look better - a lot of people would if they were fearing a murder charge. That is not nearly enough to support a murder conviction.
If the cops had some email of Z's where he confessed, or if he had made an internet message post where he discussed fantasies of baiting a kid into a shooting, or if the physical evidence were more ambiguous, then they'd have a case.
All this + the fact Martin had plenty of time to go home if he so desired, the fact that Martin was in much better shape and much stronger than Zim, and the fact that Martin was involved in illegal fighting at school and probably had a bit of a tough guy chip on his shoulder creates more than enough reasonable doubt to get Zim off, and the prosecutor definitely overcharged. It should have been manslaughter at best (although even there I think he'd be acquitted).
You're preaching to the choir here regarding the unreliability of eye witnesses. That being said, eye witnesses are used in criminal cases.
However, I disagree with you that the prosecution is "hanging its hat" on the two things you pointed out. At this time, you don't know what kind of physical evidence the prosecution has in this case, or even if you know all of any kind of evidence the state has. (Btw, do you have a link to Trayvon being involved in illegal fighting at school???) Also, I think you'd do really poor job at cross examining the girl who was talking to Trayvon on the phone at the time of the incident, if your above concerns about this witness indicate the types of questions you would ask. Remember, the jury determines the credibility of the witnesses, not the public. Sooo, words are considered "vague sounds" by you? Come on. There will likely be a number of eye witnesses called to the stand if this goes to trial.
You do know what lesser includeds are, don't you? The jury will be able to come back with a verdict of guilty on one of the lesser included crimes within the 2nd degree murder charge. We won't know until see actually see/hear the State's evidence at a hearing or a trial whether or not the State "over-charged" in this case.
Try to sort this thing out in your mind. The state must prove the elements of 2nd murder, or one of the lesser includeds.
The defense has asserted self defense, so the defendant will have to put on evidence that he killed Trayvon in self defense.
You're getting things all confused in your mind about how this will play out at a trial.
No. Nor is there any evidence that GZ did stop following Trayvon. In fact, the evidence points the other way. GZ wouldn't agree to meet the police at the mailboxes; he wanted them to call him when they arrived and then he'd give them his location. He said "these a-holes always get away".
Zimmerman indeed knows exactly what transpired, but that doesn't mean he's been truthful about it. We will likely never know what happened in the seconds before Martin allegedly began beating his ass. The only other person who knows is dead, and that's a fact that GZ has working in his favor.
Re-read the part about him making his statement prior to any witnesses. Usually when that happens the "suspect" has no idea what anybody else saw, if at all and what they might say. So far, all of what GZ said in his initial statement that could be corroborated by other witnesses has been by most of the witnesses. This gives greater credence to whatever else he said(in that statement) that cannot be corroborated.
Last edited by Cruzincat; 05-23-2012 at 08:09 PM..
I've read posts that say that Martin followed Zimmerman to his car and attacked him. I've also read that Zimmerman said he was in his car and Martin was circling it and he was afraid. I personally have not read Zimmerman's statements, but just going on what I've read here, it seems to me, if Martin circled back and attacked him on the way to his car, (how did Zimmerman manage to be in his car, fearful of Martin at that time) that the body should have been located somewhere in near proximity to the car. If the body was located far from the car, then how did this incident happen?
You know, it's possible take measurements of all the places referred to in this incident, and compare those measurements to the timeline of the incident, and determine whether or not it was possible, for example, for Trayvon to have circled around whatever and attacked Zimmermen, or whether or not it was possible for Trayvon to circle back, get to the car, circle the car as Zimmerman sat there, and then for Zimmerman to get out and have a fight then shoot Trayvon. Yes, there are experts out there that can make that kind of analysis and explain it in scientific terms to a jury and the court, with diagrams.
So, actually, where the car was located, where the body was located, and all those locations mentioned by Zimmerman and other witnesses, could be very important to this case, even critical to this case.
Sure it does. You don't seem to understand the SYG law. If GZ was following TM and TM felt threatened, then he was the one standing his ground by fighting back. You can't be standing your ground while in pursuit of the threat. I mean, who goes after the source of his fear?
TM ran from GZ and GZ did not have an eye on him. This part we know for sure. TM could have easily ran home or stay hidden. Why didn't he? SYG says that if you can get away you should. If he had gotten away SYG no longer pertains to TM.
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I know we are talking about a human being but for argument's sake, let's use a bear for comparison. If you saw a bear and thought you or your family might be in imminent danger, would you call for help and wait, or would you drive around following the bear and then follow it on foot? You would only follow the bear if you were armed with a loaded weapon and ready to use it. Otherwise, you'd be out of your freaking mind to follow something you thought was a threat to you. The whole incident makes little sense to me. First he calls 911 saying a suspicious person is up to no good and he might be armed and dangerous. But then he gets out of his car and chases him across a cut-through in the dark in back of some buildings. He shoots the "suspicious" person who turns out to be a 17 year old who didn't have a weapon, wasn't breaking into houses and had only walked to the store to buy a snack.
You are only assuming GZ was following TM to confront him. He was more likely following him only to observe him, to see if he was committing a crime and to let the cops know where he was. GZ had no idea if TM could be violent. I don't remember GZ saying the suspect in the hoodiw might be armed and dangerous. Those are your words, I suspect.
I've read posts that say that Martin followed Zimmerman to his car and attacked him. I've also read that Zimmerman said he was in his car and Martin was circling it and he was afraid. I personally have not read Zimmerman's statements, but just going on what I've read here, it seems to me, if Martin circled back and attacked him on the way to his car, (how did Zimmerman manage to be in his car, fearful of Martin at that time) that the body should have been located somewhere in near proximity to the car. If the body was located far from the car, then how did this incident happen?
You know, it's possible take measurements of all the places referred to in this incident, and compare those measurements to the timeline of the incident, and determine whether or not it was possible, for example, for Trayvon to have circled around whatever and attacked Zimmermen, or whether or not it was possible for Trayvon to circle back, get to the car, circle the car as Zimmerman sat there, and then for Zimmerman to get out and have a fight then shoot Trayvon. Yes, there are experts out there that can make that kind of analysis and explain it in scientific terms to a jury and the court, with diagrams.
So, actually, where the car was located, where the body was located, and all those locations mentioned by Zimmerman and other witnesses, could be very important to this case, even critical to this case.
Good points. Why is this case being infinitely rehashed here on multiple threads when the facts aren't in yet? What's the point?
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