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Do I think a jury will find him guilty? Honestly, I just don't know. What I do know is, without fully knowing the State's case at this point, I wouldn't even make a guess. I like to try to think what kind of case the State will put on, but I'm limited because I don't know all of their evidence. I also don't know what the defense is going to use for evidence since they have asserted self defense and will have to put on evidence of self defense. The self defense law requires that he exhaust every reasonable effort to escape from Trayvon.
Obviously we don't know all the evidence, so obviously we can't make an absolute statement. But we do already know a considerable amount of information on this case. And we also know that the charges against Zimmerman didn't come till quite a while after this case begun. And it is pretty clear to most people involved, that the prosecutor did not seek a grand jury(many think its because it would have failed), but rather took the greatest charges possible without one. And that there was quite a few questions on whether or not Zimmerman would even be charged.
With that said, if we look back at the night of the shooting, the police had said all along that it never needed to happen, but couldn't find grounds for actually filing charges against Zimmerman.
Now, can you think of any high-profile case anything similar to this case, where public opinion was both divided, but also clearly favoring innocence, where the charged person ends up convicted?
I mean, unless the prosecutors are simply amazing, or Zimmerman's attorney is totally incompetent, or the jury is incredibly biased, do you really believe Zimmerman will actually get convicted of anything? I mean, Casey Anthony got off in the same state. OJ Simpson got off. I mean, seriously, the OJ Simpson that sped away in his Bronco and refused to be arrested by the police, got off.
So really, this case is an absolute waste of time, and it serves no purpose except to create a political circus, and divide us and cause racial strife. There will be absolutely nothing positive that came out of this case, it is a endless pit of crap. And it just needs to go away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
That is an interesting quote. Do you think that black perpetuators who kill white people, yet face an all white jury do not get justice? This happens ALL the time! I don't see how having an all black jury convict him would not be justice, it won't happen though since there is hardly ever an all black jury. But I thought that was an interesting view if it is coming from a white person and I wonder if you feel the same for black defendants facing an all white jury, especially if the black defendant is accused of killing a white person.
Look, my point about an all-black jury is that it is just unlikely. An all-black jury would not be representative of the city of Sanford. So if an all-black jury was chosen, it would be because blacks are far more likely to think Zimmerman is guilty than any other racial group. Which underlines the failures in this country regarding race relations, and the so-called benefits of diversity.
I think there are people who can be entirely impartial, but it is incredibly rare. Even the people who claim to be colorblind, still tend to possess their own biases. I don't know anyone who isn't biased in some way or another. It is human nature.
If you want my real opinion, it tends to be more in line with the original views of Malcolm X, the Nation of Islam, the new black panther party, and people like Louis Farrakhan. And not the happy-go-lucky liberal diversity-loving crowd, pretending that we are somehow "post-racial", since we elected a half-black president.
That doesn't mean we can't fix the situation we are in, but I feel like we are doing it entirely the wrong way. And I think people like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and most liberals, are actually doing more harm than good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
You are trying to raise doubt as to what Trayvon was doing. It's only a small step from your questions about why it took him so long to walk home to "he was casing houses". Perhaps, instead, he was having a discussion with his girlfriend that he did not want to have in front of his family, so he dawdled, maybe even stopped for a while.
I don't believe that Trayvon was casing houses by any means. But, his girlfriend says she told him just to run home, and he said he would not run, but rather just walk fast. What do you think that means exactly?
To me, it means that he felt like he had the right to walk through the neighborhood and not to be bothered by Zimmerman, and was irritated that someone would be following him, and wanted to see what Zimmerman was going to do. And whether he would continue following him.
It says that he was not concerned for his safety, nor was he making any real attempt to just get home. When Zimmerman lost sight of Trayvon, it was for a considerable amount of time. It was basically a straight shot for Trayvon to head to his home, and he could have gotten there in the time that Zimmerman was sitting talking to the 911 dispatcher. It was only about 400 feet away(he could have walked 400 feet in a little over a minute, which is about the amount of time Zimmerman stayed on the phone after he lost sight of Martin). But not only did he not go home, he stayed basically in the same exact spot where Zimmerman lost sight of him. Which is where the fight ended up taking place. It seems most likely he was standing in a dark corner watching Zimmerman while he was on the phone, or hiding around a corner.
The most likely scenario is that, after Zimmerman hung up the phone, he was standing roughly where Trayvon Martin was shot. He had left the truck at the sidewalk into the housing area, then went around the corner to try to keep an eye on Martin, but by the time he had made it around the corner, Martin was no longer in sight. At around that point, the 911 dispatcher basically tells Zimmerman to stop following Martin, and it sounds like he does stop, and continues to stand roughly in the area where Martin eventually would be shot.
So the question is, how did Martin end up coming to stand where Zimmerman had been standing when he was talking to the dispatcher. Unless Martin intentionally came towards Zimmerman in some fashion, or unless he had basically been standing next to Zimmerman the entire time, hiding in a dark corner, behind a fence in the area, or under an awning.
Technically, Zimmerman may not have continued to pursue Martin at all after the dispatcher told him not to. Zimmerman may actually have been telling the truth when he said he began to walk back to his truck. Since it doesn't seem that Zimmerman could have possibly moved far from where he must have been standing while talking to the dispatcher, to where Trayvon would eventually be shot.
In the end, it seems like this case is just an overblown mess of BS. And that it was an easily avoidable situation, that ended tragically. I have no doubt that Trayvon was not going to kill Zimmerman, and so had Zimmerman not been carrying a gun, Trayvon would be alive. Most likely on probation and doing community service for assault. And Zimmerman would have went home with some scrapes and bruises, but otherwise would have came out just fine.
Would I have shot Martin had I been Zimmerman? Probably not. But I can understand why he did. And while I don't particularly like trigger-happy people anywhere near where I live. I do think Trayvon technically began the physical violence, by punching Zimmerman. And any time a person physically assaults someone else, there should be an expectation that they might shoot you. And I don't believe that that is a bad thing.
I have an 87-year-old man living next door to me. I can guarantee you that if someone punched him in the face and was holding him down, banging him around, he would immediately shoot them, and would never feel a second of regret. And I have a feeling, people would feel sorry for him, because he is an 87-year-old man, and no charges would be filed against him. I mean, why would someone punch a defenseless 87-year-old man anyway? What else can he do than shoot the person? I mean, he is so fragile.
RedShadowz, again, I don't know what is going to happen in this case. However, there was a suggestion that the SPD was biased in their handling of the incident by not charging Zimmerman at the time of the incident. Could that possibly be true, or is it only possible that the special prosecutor is politically motivated?
New info released by the State Attorney's Office to be considered:
A police station video taken three days after the shooting, released by the State Attorney’s Office with a trove of other evidence, shows Zimmerman walking unescorted through the police station.
This doesn't make sense. Almost every act defending Civil Rights for minorities and women have been signed into law by a Democrat from the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act. The only reason the right-wing extremists keep asking for the President's birth certificate is to delegitimize him.
I can't stand Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson. Sharpton in particular has incited violence in the past. They should both take lessons from a humanitarian like Harry Belafonte. However, during the Sanford rallies, I heard nothing hateful, only a cry for justice.
This case probably isn't about race, although it's obvious that George Zimmerman was focused on Black males, which is why he followed Trayvon Martin and felt he was suspicious looking. Since I don't know the man, it's very difficult to know what was in his mind that night, but I do believe he acted irresponsibly and should be held accountable for his actions.
He seemed to have been focused on YOUNG black males, not all black males. So it appears that he may very well have been profiling specifically YOUNG black males.
RedShadowz, again, I don't know what is going to happen in this case. However, there was a suggestion that the SPD was biased in their handling of the incident by not charging Zimmerman at the time of the incident. Could that possibly be true, or is it only possible that the special prosecutor is politically motivated?
Look, there were a lot of people at work on this case before the special prosecutor came along. And the special prosecutor took a long time to actually come to a decision after she was appointed. And I would not be surprised if she felt a little political pressure to bring charges against Zimmerman. There would have been chaos in Sanford had she not filed charges against him. And the charges she brought were the most possible, while avoiding having to go to a grand jury. The police even recommended manslaughter charges, not murder charges. Which seem far more fitting under the circumstances than second-degree murder.
It does seem to me that the special-prosecutor is playing a game. Many think she brought the highest charges, hoping that Zimmerman will make a plea-bargain.
I think pretty much all the police evidence has already been released. I don't really think new evidence is going to be submitted. The only issue that seems unresolved is the audio of who was screaming for help. Personally, I think it was Zimmerman screaming for help. It makes the most sense, since he told the paramedics at the scene that he had been screaming for help, and no one would come. Which was long before he knew anything about a 911 call where you could hear someone screaming for help. As well as the fact that he was the one losing the fight. It really wouldn't make any sense for the screaming to be Trayvon.
I mean, I can't for the life of me figure out why people are still talking about this case. As the evidence comes out, it is supporting Zimmermans self-defense case, and the polls are evident of that.
Whether or not Trayvon's death is a tragedy or not, doesn't mean that Zimmerman should go to prison. It is really fine that Zimmerman goes to trial, maybe that will give closure. But I just don't see how anyone actually believes that Zimmerman will be convicted. Nor is there absolutely any proof of a racial motivation for shooting Trayvon.
This case should have never become what it is, and the race-baiters that made this case into a national spectacle, did no good for anyone at all. In fact, almost all polls say racial relations have been deteriorating. And you can thank things like this case and the media circus and Al Sharpton for all of that.
Look, my point about an all-black jury is that it is just unlikely. An all-black jury would not be representative of the city of Sanford. So if an all-black jury was chosen, it would be because blacks are far more likely to think Zimmerman is guilty than any other racial group. Which underlines the failures in this country regarding race relations, and the so-called benefits of diversity.
If an all-black jury were selected, I can promise you it would be the first issue in an appeal if Zimmerman were convicted, and it would win on appeal.
Jury selection is not as haphazard as it might appear from the outside. There are rules and laws that apply to jury selection in order to avoid what you are implying. The State doesn't just get to pick who they want on the jury; the defense also has an equal say in who is selected.
If an all-black jury were selected, I can promise you it would be the first issue in an appeal if Zimmerman were convicted, and it would win on appeal.
Jury selection is not as haphazard as it might appear from the outside. There are rules and laws that apply to jury selection in order to avoid what you are implying. The State doesn't just get to pick who they want on the jury; the defense also has an equal say in who is selected.
I understand the process. I was just saying that, the only way he could possibly be convicted is by an all-black jury. I never spoke of an appeal or whether or not the all-black jury could even possibly happen. I just said, it was the only possible way for him to get convicted.
And since it is basically impossible for it to end up in an all-black jury, then I'm basically asserting that it is impossible for him to be convicted.
I understand the process. I was just saying that, the only way he could possibly be convicted is by an all-black jury. I never spoke of an appeal or whether or not the all-black jury could even possibly happen. I just said, it was the only possible way for him to get convicted.
And since it is basically impossible for it to end up in an all-black jury, then I'm basically asserting that it is impossible for him to be convicted.
I disagree. Anything is "possible."
It seems foolish to me to disregard or under estimate your opponent, and I'm guessing that Zimmerman's attorney is not blowing off the State's case.
It seems foolish to me to disregard or under estimate your opponent, and I'm guessing that Zimmerman's attorney is not blowing off the State's case.
He isn't blowing off the state's case because there is too much at stake. But, this doesn't really seem like a remotely fair fight. I mean, you basically have evidence of Trayvon punching Zimmerman, because his finger is bruised. You have Zimmerman with a bloody and broken nose, bleeding heavily from the back of the head. You have Zimmerman claiming that he had been screaming for help, and which we know someone had been screaming for help for quite some time, and we are pretty sure that that person is Zimmerman. We have the closest witness that says he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman, and that Zimmerman was asking him for help. The police say Zimmermans back was wet and grass-stained, which is consistent with him being on the ground and Trayvon on top of him.
We don't have any proof that Zimmerman was even following Trayvon at the point the fight occurred. We know that Trayvon started the confrontation by saying something to Zimmerman, but have absolutely no information about what happened next, and will never have any information about what happened next.
Not only is this case so obviously a situation of self-defense based on the evidence. But even if it wasn't self-defense, it would still be impossible for the state to even prove.
I mean, it is an absolute waste of time. And when it comes to an end, you are going to end up with protests and violence, just like you are seeing violence in recent weeks with many black people supposedly taking out their frustrations about Trayvon's death by attacking whites.
This case will not end on a positive note. It will not accomplish anything good at all. And you can thank Al Sharpton and the other race-baiters.
Look, there were a lot of people at work on this case before the special prosecutor came along. And the special prosecutor took a long time to actually come to a decision after she was appointed. And I would not be surprised if she felt a little political pressure to bring charges against Zimmerman. There would have been chaos in Sanford had she not filed charges against him. And the charges she brought were the most possible, while avoiding having to go to a grand jury. The police even recommended manslaughter charges, not murder charges. Which seem far more fitting under the circumstances than second-degree murder.
It does seem to me that the special-prosecutor is playing a game. Many think she brought the highest charges, hoping that Zimmerman will make a plea-bargain.
I think pretty much all the police evidence has already been released. I don't really think new evidence is going to be submitted. The only issue that seems unresolved is the audio of who was screaming for help. Personally, I think it was Zimmerman screaming for help. It makes the most sense, since he told the paramedics at the scene that he had been screaming for help, and no one would come. Which was long before he knew anything about a 911 call where you could hear someone screaming for help. As well as the fact that he was the one losing the fight. It really wouldn't make any sense for the screaming to be Trayvon.
I mean, I can't for the life of me figure out why people are still talking about this case. As the evidence comes out, it is supporting Zimmermans self-defense case, and the polls are evident of that.
Whether or not Trayvon's death is a tragedy or not, doesn't mean that Zimmerman should go to prison. It is really fine that Zimmerman goes to trial, maybe that will give closure. But I just don't see how anyone actually believes that Zimmerman will be convicted. Nor is there absolutely any proof of a racial motivation for shooting Trayvon.
This case should have never become what it is, and the race-baiters that made this case into a national spectacle, did no good for anyone at all. In fact, almost all polls say racial relations have been deteriorating. And you can thank things like this case and the media circus and Al Sharpton for all of that.
All of the above ^^^ are your opinions about the evidence in this case. They are based on your perception of the evidence. At this point, you have no idea what a jury in this case will actually hear. You don't know what kind of case the State will put on, you just know your opinions of the fragments of evidence which has been commented on by the media. If you're familiar with the process, you KNOW that what actually happens in the courtroom is far different from what you have read about in the paper, seen on TV, or read on the internet. That said, if the State does indeed have a really weak case, and cannot convince a jury, then, yes, there will be an acquittal. But that's a very big IF at this point.
the special prosecutor filed charges three weeks after she was appointed.
I disagree with you that all the State's evidence has been released. Specifically, the various statements made by Zimmerman have not been released. There could be all kinds of other evidence you don't know anything about at this point. Did you view the video in the link I posted of Zimmerman walking about very comfortably in the SPD just 3 days after the shooting? It is clearly a place with which he is very familiar and very comfortable. This is information which has just today been written about. All of these pieces indicate to me that the State did, and is still doing, a pretty thorough investigation.
If you wanted to actually do something constructive. You need to stop wanting Zimmerman locked up so badly, and fighting about some supposedly new evidence that the state is going to use to win the case. But rather use your resources to raise awareness, to help prevent this kind of situation from happening again.
I will say something, I am quite prejudicial in general, especially towards people of color. If I had seen Martin walking down my neighborhood, I would have assumed he were a criminal as well.
But, I live very close to a military base, and when I go to the store, I see plenty of black men dressed in military uniforms. And I would never suspect a black man in a military uniform of being a criminal. If I saw a black man in a military uniform walking down my street. I would greet him politely. My friend is basically a neo-conservative, and he likes to tell the service people that come walking by "Thank you", and it doesn't matter what race they are.
There are ways we can avoid this kind of situation from happening in the future. This situation was easily avoidable on so many levels. But locking up Zimmerman really doesn't accomplish much of anything. And it simply isn't going to happen anyway.
Last edited by Redshadowz; 05-24-2012 at 01:17 AM..
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