Quote:
Originally Posted by RebelYell14
|
Aside from the fact that it is on Pukipedia?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RebelYell14
I did read it. So go ahead tell me what's wrong with it.
|
It's a Straw Man argument created by a pro-UHC advocate.
And it's on Pukipedia.
I'll answer your question, by debunking the grotesquely misinformed people below.
Telling...
Mircea
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTAtech
Where in the world has this proven to actually work? We already know that single-payer government insurance does bring down cost...
|
That is a tautological argument.
I will let the German Minister of Heath refute and debunk you....
In the past 20 years, our over-riding philosophy has been that the health system cannot spend more than its income." --- Franz Kneips, German Ministry of Health - 2009
Single-payer costs less, because
governments spend less.
It's a real simple concept.
I can create a single-payer system in the US, limit spending to $2,500 per person per year, and then strut about like a friggin' pompous ass proclaiming that the US has the cheapest health care system in the world.
But then a lot of Americans would die, because they would not get the health care they need.
Yes, countries with UHC/single-payer plans ration health care. They deny treatment. They delay treatment. They dilute treatment to the point of being ineffective.
I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that health costs a lot in the US, because it
really does cost that much to properly treat people......without denying them care, without delaying their care and without diluting their treatment.
Going back to the German Minister of Heath...
In the past 20 years, our over-riding philosophy has been that the health system cannot spend more than its income." --- Franz Kneips, German Ministry of Health - 2009
....if the government is not spending more than it collects in revenues, then it should be more than obvious that people are not getting the best medical treatment.
Refuting....
Mircea
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellemint
Nobody is suggesting free healthcare.
|
Yes, they are. I'm not saying you personally, but effectively that is what the foaming-at-the-mouth-advocates want. Read their posts....you'll see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellemint
Healthcare is an essential service, like utilities or education. Without government oversite and regulation what is to stop healthcare service providers from colluding and charging ever higher fees so that only the wealthy are able to afford healthcare?
|
Uh, healthcare service providers collude and charge higher fees.
These are some of the services a small (low number of beds) hospital offers
* Hospice
* Dental
* Alcohol and/or Drug
* Smoking Cessation Clinic
* Speech Pathology
* Optometric
* Outpatient
* Pharmacy
* Radiology (Therapeutic)
* Outpatient Surgery Unit
* Neonatal Nursery
* Burn Care Unit
* Acute Renal Dialysis
* Long Term Care Unit
* Radiology (Diagnostic)
* Psychiatric
* Diet/Weight Loss
* Coronary Care Unit
* Physical Therapy
* Intensive Care Unit
* Inpatient Surgical
* Social Services
* Home Care Unit
* Organ Transplant
* Emergency Services (Organized)
* Shock Trauma
* Open Heart Surgery Facility
* Occupational Therapy
* Pediatric
* Nuclear Medicine
* Obstetrics
Okay, so the Smoking Cessation Clinic is losing money hand-over-fist.
What is the logical thing to do? Close the Smoking Cessation Clinic is losing money, what is the smart thing to do? Dump it. Shut it down, lay off everyone associated with it. But that is not what hospitals do. Hospitals raise the rates of all of their other services to cover the losses.
Suppose the OB-GYN clinic is losing money. The hospital won't shut it down, instead it will simply raise the rates of all other services to make up for the losses.
That is a fact. The true cost of open-heart surgery in this area is $13,000 but all of the hospitals charge $26,000 to $41,000. Why?
Because open-heart surgery is very profitable and it makes up for the financial losses the hospitals have on their other services.
In may areas of the US, you have competing monopolistic cartels. Here we have Tri-Health as one OPEC-style cartel, and then the Health Alliance is the other OPEC-style cartel.
And even though they are supposed to be competing against each other, they collude to fix prices at higher levels. They even black-list and low-ball hospitals that refuse to join the cartels, in order to force them to join.
It was a big deal here, because one of the hospitals had to go to court and file a law suit in order to get out of one of the cartels.
So what has government oversight done?
Nothing.
Deregulating...
Mircea
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude
Free market healthcare is what broke it.
|
What an incredibly obtuse statement.
And you have facts to support your claim?
No, of course you don't.
Free Market Health Care in the US ceased to exist in 1941 when the War Labor Board and the IRS deemed health plan benefits to be a fringe benefit and not subject to taxation.
Reports and Decisions of the National War Labor Board, The Bureau of National Affairs, 4, 1943 Volume LXIV.
Nobody went to hospitals in the 1920s or 1930s, because hospitals were where you went to die, unless you had some long term illness that required care.
Don't you know your history?
Because of the Great Depression, hospitals began offering pre-paid health plans, and no that is not insurance because it does not involve actuarial science, does not assess risk and it is not a specific reimbursement for a specified peril.
The American Hospital Association then dictated to member hospitals that if it offered such plans, they must conform to certain requirements.
What is that?
That is an oligarchy, an Agent of Socialism, interfering in the Free Market.
Question: What is the driving force behind Health Care?
Answer: Technology.
What changed? What was it that caused Americans
to want to go to an hospital?
A Scotsman on a horse invented penicillin in 1929, but no one could figure out a way to commercially produce penicillin until 1940. And then clinical trials weren't conducted until 1941. And even then penicillin was only used in the military ---
it didn't become available to the general public until 1946.
Don't you know your history?
Instead of Sufla, people got Penicillin, and they had higher survival rates, thus initiating the demand for health care. During the late 1940s and early 1950s, antibiotics like Streptomycin and Terramcyin were introduced, commercially produced, and run through clinical trials.
That resulted in higher chances of surviving surgeries, and that increases the demand for health care.
The American Hospital Association's
Committee to Destroy Free Market Health Care In The United States formally organized in 1946 as Blue Cross.
The AHA then lobbies Congress and the State legislatures to enact regulations that start driving up both the cost of health care, and the pre-paid plans which have now evolved into medical services cost-sharing plans.
Among the lobbying efforts undertaken by the AHA were tax subsidies to both employers and employees for health care plans.
How can you say there's a free market when government subsidies are involved?
How can you say there's a free market when an oligarchical agent of socialism like the American Hospital Association -- who wrote much of Obamacare -- is interfering in the Market by dictating the terms of the health plans?
Can you buy an health care plan that covers only emergency room visits and nothing else?
No you cannot --
you are not allowed because the AHA and the government said you are not allowed.
And you call that the Free Market?
Right.
Not even amused...
Mircea
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoomBen
We have never had a true free market. We have massive conglomerates, monopolieis and oligopolies.
The current health insurance system we have is not a free market. There is little if any competition because we can not go interstate to purchase plans that maybe more suitable and affordable.
Obamacare has made our "free market" health insurance system worse. It empowered the monopolies even more.
|
Awesome.
You got it right.
To get to Free Market health care....
1] ban hospital cartels.
2] limit ownership of hospitals to one per Metropolitan Statistical Area.
3] repeal Section 6001 of Obamacare and encourage the development of highly specialized clinics (like Europe).
4] end all employer and employee tax subsidies
5] repeal all State "insurance" regulations except those regarding Capitalization and Liquidity.
6] a doctor on staff in hospital can refer a patient to another doctor on staff at another hospital, but a doctor cannot refer a patient to another doctor directly? That's stupid American Hospital Association nonsense. End it.
7] repeal all federal regulations regarding health plan mandates.
Do that and you'll have a truly free market system that is affordable to everyone, and provides highly efficient, highly effective care at the lowest possible cost.
And then, if there is any need for any regulation at all, the only thing that would be required is that people purchase some form of emergency room coverage, in the same way that people purchase limited liability coverage to drive a car.
Like in Ohio where a minimum $25,000 liability coverage is required to drive. You can purchase $25,000 of insurance, or you can purchase a surety bond for $200 that provides $25,000 of coverage in the event you have some objection to insurance companies or in the event no company will insure you.
Why can't you buy $50,000 worth of emergency room coverage for you or a family member?
Because you don't have Free Market health care.
Concurring...
Mircea