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I'm really struggling with this issue because of a recent situation with a family member.
My family is a "gun family." Lots of military veterans, lots of rural lifestyle, including hunting, target practice, etc. We've never had an accident involving a gun. Both my parents and I have actually used a gun to protect ourselves and stop a crime (none of us had to actually fire a weapon - just the presence of a weapon was enough).
We store our weapons in safes.
My brother is 41. He has been a gun collector all his life. He has abused substances for decades. Though he is intelligent and has had many advantages in life (handsome, college educated, owned his own business at one time, married a professional, educated woman, bought a nice house, etc.) I believe that he has had a personality disorder for most of his life. His substance abuse added to his problems. Long story short, he had a total psychotic breakdown several months ago after his wife left him and he lost his job (he had already lost his business several years before due to his irresponsible behavior and drug use). During this breakdown, he committed several felonies. He was involuntarily committed, and his official diagnosis is a Cluster B personality disorder and schizophrenia. His medical team has told us that he has brain damage from substance abuse.
He has been on various medications now since November and I just went to see him a few days ago - and he is completely insane - delusional, seeing things, hearing voices, the whole nine yards. He has been deemed incompetent to stand trial and will most likely go to a state mental facility for the criminally insane.
However, they won't be able to keep him there forever. He will eventually be out. Then what?
Of course it is now illegal for him to own or possess a firearm.
I think that anyone - ANYONE - who allows him to buy or possess, or have access to, firearms would be criminally negligent. And I think they should be prosecuted as criminally negligent, or even as an accessory to a crime if he used a firearm in a crime. But how do we as a society track this? The only way I can see it working, even halfway working, is to have a universal database of felons and the mentally ill, and to require a background check for any firearms purchase, both private and public sales. But how do we enforce this if guns aren't registered? I mean, what if Joe Blow has an unregistered gun and he just DOESN'T run a background check and sells it to my brother? How could the transaction even be traced if it was a cash deal, if the weapon was used in a crime?
But the bigger question is this - how do we actually STOP a criminal from selling an unregistered gun to someone?
I don't see how a nationwide database would WORK wtihout a nationwide gun registry. And then I don't see how THAT would even work for anyone OTHER THAN law abiding citizens.
I also go back and forth on this next issue:
I realize that the actual incidence of homicides via firearm (and even suicides via firearms, which out rank homicides) are a low percentage when it comes to actual causes of death in this country. I realize that MOST people who use a firearm, as well as most VICTIMS of homicides via firearms, have a criminal record, and often the actual homicide occurs while BOTH parties are engaging in criminal activities.
But that being said, statistics suddenly become meaningless when you realize that your own brother is dangerous - to himself, to you, and to society in general.
Then I have the words of the DA still ringing in my ear: "When he gets out - arm yourself and be prepared to protect yourself. Law enforcement can't do much to protect you from him." As a law abiding, responsible citizen, I don't want to have to rely on law enforcement to protect me, especially when they are so clearly telling me that it's unrealistic to expect them to be able to protect our family. So part of me is skeptical of ANY government program which only would seem to track, with any real success, law abiding citizens.
I guess I am saying that at least we should have a national database of felons and the seriously mentally ill. At least that might stop responsible gun sellers from inadvertently selling a gun to a felon or a mental patient. But I can't see how it would stop a criminal from selling a gun. And I can't see criminals voluntarily registering guns.
KathrynAragon
I think that anyone - ANYONE - who allows him to buy or possess, or have access to, firearms would be criminally negligent. And I think they should be prosecuted as criminally negligent, or even as an accessory to a crime if he used a firearm in a crime.
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I'm very sorry to hear about your brother and the sad and frustrating circumstances. However, I don't think we will ever be able to make criminals 'behave' (apply to buy guns vs. steal them, etc), and I don't think 'blame-shifting' will make a big dent in this scenario either. And is that really 'just'?
I admit I don't have an answer to your circumstance, aside from using great caution and self-defense (as the DA warned). There are some things that national law enforcement efforts just cannot (and should not) encompass.
I realize that MOST people who use a firearm, as well as most VICTIMS of homicides via firearms, have a criminal record, and often the actual homicide occurs while BOTH parties are engaging in criminal activities.
Firstly, I would like to see where this comes from...because I severely doubt it's remotely real.
Secondly, if some one has a record...does that mean they deserve to die? If your brother was walking through the park and some one mugs him and shoots him in the head, does having a record mean he was just waiting to be shot?
How many people at Sandy Hook/Century 16 theater in Aurora/Tucson had records and were engaging in criminal activity? If they had records was it not murder that they died?
The fact of the matter is that Canada has had good gun control for years. Gun crime rates are 6 times less then Americas (per capita), criminals don't go hopping over the boarder to get the guns illegally, and they haven't turned into some fascist/communist gulag of a dictatorship. The other part is they have better mental health care then the US, for the more crazy gunners, but one without the other is only a half ***ed attempt at the problem.
Nothing will eliminate the whole problem, but in any other arena if some one said they could knock down deaths by 6 times people would be screaming to do it. With guns it seems like a background check, which people go through to get even the most basic service jobs at McDonald's, is dismissed as some crazy idea.
If we want these checks for people that serve us terrible food, or take care of our kids, or even drive buses...why is it crazy to want them for those that carry deadly weapons?
Last edited by EmeraldCityWanderer; 02-10-2013 at 01:58 PM..
There - that should give you a good start on some stats.
Quote:
Secondly, if some one has a record...does that mean they deserve to die? If your brother was walking through the park and some one mugs him and shoots him in the head, does having a record mean he was just waiting to be shot?
No, but if he wants the right to carry a weapon for self protection, he needs to earn and retain that right by refraining from FELONIES himself. Being a felon means you lose some of your former rights. Sorry, but that's the way it goes.
Quote:
How many people at Sandy Hook/Century 16 theater in Aurora/Tucson had records and were engaging in criminal activity? If they had records was it not murder that they died?
I wish I could have a logical discussion with you about gun control, but based on this statement, I don't believe I can.
I am just curious how all of these laws will be enforced..
Me too. Over fifty percent of American households have at least one gun. The vast majority of these homes are not the homes of criminals. Most of these gun owners are responsible, law abiding citizens, who WANT to obey laws, stay out of trouble, etc. But they also want to retain their rights under the Constitution.
The criminal element in our society is the one that's out of control, of course. I sure would like to see some laws that START WITH THEM as the source of the problem - which they are.
There - that should give you a good start on some stats.
Nope, because it's not my claim and it's not my point. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, not the person listening to it. Any more then I need to do research to see if lizard people, faeries, or jedi are real every time some one makes a claim. If I did that with every claim I couldn't leave the house, which is okay for those who wouldn't anyways.
Thank you for providing the back up for your point that it's around 65%, though even your references state that it is often exaggerated to be much higher.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
No, but if he wants the right to carry a weapon for self protection, he needs to earn and retain that right by refraining from FELONIES himself. Being a felon means you lose some of your former rights. Sorry, but that's the way it goes.
I have checks to see if I can drive a car in order to buy one, or that I have a good record to have a job...if felons shouldn't have guns in your opinion and you refuse to close this hole that lets people buy them anyways then the position makes no sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
I wish I could have a logical discussion with you about gun control, but based on this statement, I don't believe I can.
Okay, bye. I just don't think if some one has committed a crime they deserve anything that comes to them later. It seemed like that was the jist of your statement,
Last edited by CaseyB; 02-11-2013 at 03:45 AM..
Reason: off topic
Nope, because it's not my claim and it's not my point. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, not the person listening to it. Any more then I need to do research to see if lizard people, faeries, or jedi are real every time some one makes a claim. If I did that with every claim I couldn't leave the house, which is okay for those who wouldn't anyways.
Thank you for providing the back up for your point that it's around 65%, though even your references state that it is often exaggerated to be much higher.
You do know that even the rest 35% may not have criminal records, it does NOT mean they aren't criminals to begin with - they very likely haven't got caught.
I personally have done my research on this very subject.
Even at high estimate that 5% of murders are committed by lawful gun owners, that is still a far far small number compared to total number of lawful gun owners, not even a percentage point, far less than the general population.
The number is certainly NOT on your side.
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