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Originally Posted by Old Army Soldier
No it wasn't. Where are their deeds that established ownership of property at the time? Where was their established government located?
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Under Customary Law at the time, property deeds were never required, neither was government.
Customary Laws are laws that are not codified, yet States all over the world agree to abide by the, and in fact, follow the same customs --- hence the term "Customary Law."
An excellent example is the Customary Laws of the Sea. All States all over the world that engaged in maritime shipping followed these laws. They are largely common sense that becomes custom over time.
It wasn't until the 1950s that the British finally took all of the Customary Laws of the Sea, wrote them down as regulations and then submitted them to the United Nations --- UNCLOS....
United Nations Customary Laws of the Sea.
Under Customary Laws of Land Usage/Rights, any land that was developed was deemed to be owned. Developed meant that there was a well, a path, a road, a fence whether it is hedgerows, rocks or wood, boundary markers of any type, storage facilities such as barns, market places and of course dwellings.
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Originally Posted by Old Army Soldier
On the other hand, we can look at this from a liberal point of view. If anything the pilgrims were bringing multiculturalism and diversity to a sickeningly homogeneous society and the "native Americans" were a bunch of Nazis, racists and haters for opposing them. Didn't they know "diversity is strength"? Tell me how your perception of Pilgrims are now?
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The Pilgrims were pure scum.
The were a fanatical religious cult hated by everyone in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England, the Netherlands, Normandy, Breton, the rest of France, Scandinavia and everywhere else they went.
They were like a plague on the Earth.
Had Pilgrims gained power in the Colonies, it's unlikely there would have been War of Colonial Independence, and had the Pilgrims gained power in the new United States, celebrating your birthday would be a crime --- that was an evil Satan thing; there would have been no Christmas --- it was banned as an evil pagan Satan thing; there would have been no holidays ever -- because they are evil Satan things.
They had a lot of really weird ideas, none of which would be to your liking.
As far as "Native Americans" (snicker) being homogenous, that never happened. Not ever in the history of the Americas.
To date, the oldest known skeleton in the Americas is that of a Negroid woman who lived 25,000 years ago.
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Originally Posted by caribdoll
The point is that this was their land.
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Whose land? Who are "they?"
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Originally Posted by caribdoll
The Pilgrims and other "whites" came here and literally wiped them out.
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Though they never appear to have warred against each other, neither did they engage in wholesale intermixing of either their different cultures or blood. Instead, they seem to have been long-term allies against a common foe, the Plains Indians, who vastly outnumbered them. Not even alliance with the populous Adena, however, could save the Hopewell. Around the turn of the fifth century, they utterly disappeared, as though in a single moment.
The cause is not difficult to surmise. Before the end, many Hopewell fled south to an area between Fort Smith and Hot Springs, Arkansas, where they made a final effort to save themselves at the Aikman Mounds, the last such earthworks ever raised. During the late 1920s, archaeologists from Washington University (St. Louis, Missouri) and the University of Arkansas (Fayetteville) excavated the mounds and their vicinity to unearth thousands upon thousands of human skeletons revealing blunt-force trauma. Many if most of the skulls had been crushed or staved in.
From
Advanced Civilizations of Prehistoric America: The Lost Kingdoms of the Adena, Hopewell, Mississippians, and Anasazi; Frank Joseph
More than 100,000 bodies were found. All of them beaten to a bloody pulp.
That is GENOCIDE.
Circa 400 ACE near what is now Fort Smith, Arkansas more than 100,000 people were murdered by blunt force trauma over a period of 1-5 days. This area is called the the Aikman Mounds, and they were excavated by archaeologists from the Universities of Arkansas and Washington.
In addition to the genocide of the Hopewell, there is also circumstantial evidence that the Adena Nation were annihilated in a similar genocidal campaign.
The Adena and Hopewell are unique in that they had something in common: the were vastly taller than other tribal groups. The Adena and Hopewell were generally 6'2" to 6'6" in height, while all other groups averaged 5'2" to 5'8" in height.
It's 450 CE, so, what, are you suggesting that some Anglo-Saxons sailed across the Atlantic, discovered America, then marched 1,000 miles across the US to present-day Arkansas, beat 100,000+ Hopewell Indians to a bloody pulp in a genocidal rage eradicating the Hopewell from Earth, then marched 1,000 miles back to the coast and sailed back to Europe?
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Originally Posted by ambient
The Native Americans had none, but it is 100% fact that this nation was founded by immigrants from overseas who came and forcefully took from the Native Americans, leading to their subjugation and near demise.
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That isn't true at all.
There were three types of aboriginal groups in North America....those were sedentary and dwelt in houses, those who were semi-nomadic and those were wholly nomadic.
In the New England region, nearly all of the tribal groups were sedentary, and under Customary Law, they own the land, so land was purchased from them....like when Manhattan Island was purchased. And note that those tribal groups are still living on their ancestral lands.
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Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake
A required "cultural sensitivity" class for adults is stupid enough in it's own right. But to require participants to bang on the table and chant "pilgrims were illegal aliens"? You have no problem with? Do you thing the participants are in pre-school?
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Uh, that is a classic brain-washing technique.
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Originally Posted by Old Army Soldier
NO........the damn Indians DID NOT own the land when the Pilgrims arrived.  |
That isn't true. Under then Customary Laws, many tribal groups owned their land. Again, that's why the Dutch bought Manhattan Island, because under Customary Law, Manhattan Island was considered owned, even though no formal property deed existed, due to the fact that the tribal groups there lived in houses and market places, boundary markers and so own.
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Originally Posted by caribdoll
Whatever makes you sleep better at night. At the end of the day, it was their land, not the Pilgrims land.
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Really?
Okay, then enlighten us.
Specifically, I want you to address the expulsion of the Sacs & Fox from Illinois. The men of the Sacs & Fox went to parlay with other tribal groups to secure safe passage through the territories of other tribal groups, including the enemies of the Sacs & Fox.
While the men were gone, a young captain in the Illinois National Guard led his cavalry troop the location where the Sacs & Fox were camped and slaughtered several hundred women, children and elderly.
The young captain's name was Abraham Lincoln.
If it was, um, you know, "their land" then why did the Sacs & Fox have to negotiate for permission to travel through the territories of other tribal groups?
So.....even "Native Americans" (snicker) had immigration laws....except the penalty was death, not deportation.
While you're at it, why don't you explain to everyone why tribal groups joined forces with the US army and fought against other tribal groups.
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Originally Posted by Old Army Soldier
You're full of it. For one thing, they were basically Nomads.
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Well, some were nomadic or semi-nomadic, but there are several dozen tribes that were not. They lived in houses in small towns and villages. That would be the case for nearly all of the tribal groups in the New England area, plus many tribal groups in the southwest, like the Hopi.
Customarily....
Mircea
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