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Having 17 years experience in management in union shops and another 18 in non-union shops, I don't get this comment. There was no difference in the quality or amount of training we provided, in fact it was more intense in the non-union shops, but I chalk that up to more competition and ever more regulatory requirements not union/non-union. You can't have a productive workforce without training that I know of.
I was just commenting based on my personal observation. The friends of mine who found work in unionized companies are doing far better. Those working for non union companies are basically getting entry level dead end jobs that simply take up space on a resume. I'm not sure how the hiring and training is done for professional level jobs, but there seems to be quite a few experienced workers around to fill the demand.
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Originally Posted by Midpack
Do you mean training, or apprenticeships specifically? I understand apprenticeships aren't as readily available today because where there was once a shortage of skilled trades (or whatever term you prefer), today there seems to be an excess in some trades at least.
In the private sector, it seems both. There are enough experienced workers out there that entry level positions are few and far between. Working in the skilled trades, I think we do have a shortage in some of these occupations, but non union shops won't train. They kick, scream and whine about how they can't find good skilled tradesman while we have a glut of young folks looking for a career. Put two and two together and you would think a few of them would actually think to train. At least in my case, I was lucky enough to be recruited by a union shop in HS. Of course, none of the non union shops were offering similar opportunities. In my opinion, this is a ticking time bomb. Everywhere I have worked, I am the youngest by about a 20 year margin in the skilled trade department. Most of the young folks in these settings are unskilled laborers who wouldn't be capable of mastering the trade.
I have never heard a non union worker "whine" about union worker benefits. Your fantasy?
I heard plenty of whining from non union people in 2008 when they lost more than half of their 401K and they looked at union people retiring with full, protected pensions.
We are way better off at retirement time unless the non union people have been very disciplined and astute in their investing. A pretty rare thing.
And if they do a poor job, they should be fired that day so that someone who will do the job well can step in. They shouldn't be protected by a union simply because they are so greedy that they want more money without actually doing the work to earn it.
Union workers - the epitome of greedy. Valuing extra cash in their pocket over actually working hard enough to prove they are worth the wage.
I'm sure that THIS makes your blood boil, then? CEOs of companies in bankruptcy being paid more than that vast, vast majority will ever earn in their lifetime for running a sinking ship further into the depths for a mere 16 months of "work"? But, I'm going to assume you actually celebrate those types.
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Originally Posted by hnsq
Talk about ignorance. It is all but impossible to fire someone from a union job. Have you ever looked through a union contract?
Really? Read my union's newsletter: Show up on site without the proper tools, and you will be sent home and not paid for the day. Show up late without calling, you will be sent home, replaced, and not paid for the day (and will likely lose future calls). Talk on the show floor about union stuff or about the client, get removed from the call. Have a client complain about a person and see that person dealt with, or at least have the situation checked out.
Not all unions are out to screw everyone over. Many do actually want to put out the best product they can and don't take bad work lightly. Do some? OF COURSE. Just as there are terrible workers in every line of work, terrible managers in every line of work, and terrible CEOs/owners in every line of work. The big difference is, however, that once you get to a certain level, you can be completely useless and still receive tens of millions for your lack of service.
BTW...I would like to point out that while I am a member of a union, I am also a non-union freelancer. I will only take non-union jobs which adhere to union-style rules (proper meal breaks, hours, etc) and that pay accordingly. In fact, I told one employer who told me I make too much that it's not that I make too much, it's that their product quality is beneath my level. They didn't like that.
All of the local private labor companies in my industry pay just above minimum wage, with no benefits whatsoever (overtime, etc), and 1099 the employees. I wouldn't even answer the phone for them unless my child was starving. However, the end-client cost is not that much less. I don't know about you, but I'd much rather give my money to the workers than to a labor provider if the cost to me is near the same.
I'm not saying that all unions are awesome. Some of them really, really suck (and I say that as a union member). But to hold the opinion that all unions are morally bankrupt leeches looking to suck the life-blood out of companies is simply BS.
I heard plenty of whining from non union people in 2008 when they lost more than half of their 401K and they looked at union people retiring with full, protected pensions.
We are way better off at retirement time unless the non union people have been very disciplined and astute in their investing. A pretty rare thing.
There are numerous union workers who have lost some or all of their pension benefits over the last few years as well - simply look to the auto industry for example
There are numerous union workers who have lost some or all of their pension benefits over the last few years as well - simply look to the auto industry for example
I can only attest to my company and union. Again, if not for the pay, benefits and job security I would not be working here. I have a lot of options and skills. Kind of flies in the face of what union haters think of us eh?
The company pays us exactly what they have to to keep us, they are not forced to do anything by the union except act in a responsible manner towards their employees.
We don't have any managers that hate the union like people here do. They thank us for keeping the bar high in wage and benefits. If they didn't pay us they would give more to the shareholders and they get enough or they wouldn't keep investing. It's a fine balance and it works pretty good.
Funny how all the high paid American CEOs can't run a profitable operation here in the states. For that, they must send everything to China, India, etc. In the mean time, all I see are European and even CHINESE business owners and CEOs rushing in to set up shop in America. Seems to me the American CEO's and their management are overpaid ...
The idea that American firm can't make a profit unless they go to cheaper labor markets is demonstrably false. NY City used to be the center of the garment industry and those firms made profits. Firms wanted more profit and first moved to the cheaper South and them to Asia.
But my objection is to the thread title. If one wants to have a serious discussion about unions, fine. But don't start a red herring thread presuming the issue is self-esteem, and that is why workers need to join union.
The fact is that one gets better outcomes when negotiating from a position of strength than from weakness. You against the corporation is negotiating from weakness. All the workers negotiating together is negotiating from a strong position. It is a smiple as that.
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