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Old 05-04-2013, 08:46 AM
 
22,923 posts, read 15,477,951 times
Reputation: 16962

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
There are numerous union workers who have lost some or all of their pension benefits over the last few years as well - simply look to the auto industry for example
And that should not have happened BY LAW! Those Auto companies got away with an illegal act that they should have been required to correct prior to taking funds from taxpayers and using those to bolster executive bonus's.

That was done with Federal government complicity in all facets; from their failure to file actuarial assessments on a timely basis as required by law, to their failure to fund the plans on an on-going basis
to comply with funded/unfunded liability legal requirements.

The government allowed them to get away with that and the stupid Union slept at the switch while the train rolled right on by.

At the very least; those corporate jets used to shuttle to and from begging sessions should have been sold off to bring those agreed-to benefit plans into compliance. That damn building with the huge GM logo on it might also be an asset no longer required to remind everyone of their monstrous failure to manage.

GM agreed to Pension requests at a number of collective bargaining sessions then; instead of funding concurrent to applicable actuarial tables of solvency, they took filing holidays in conflict with laws governing oversight of Private plans.

Too big to fail and seemingly no one with the balls to punish them.
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Old 05-04-2013, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,100 posts, read 39,246,649 times
Reputation: 4937
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
And that should not have happened BY LAW! Those Auto companies got away with an illegal act that they should have been required to correct prior to taking funds from taxpayers and using those to bolster executive bonus's.

That was done with Federal government complicity in all facets; from their failure to file actuarial assessments on a timely basis as required by law, to their failure to fund the plans on an on-going basis
to comply with funded/unfunded liability legal requirements.

The government allowed them to get away with that and the stupid Union slept at the switch while the train rolled right on by.

At the very least; those corporate jets used to shuttle to and from begging sessions should have been sold off to bring those agreed-to benefit plans into compliance. That damn building with the huge GM logo on it might also be an asset no longer required to remind everyone of their monstrous failure to manage.

GM agreed to Pension requests at a number of collective bargaining sessions then; instead of funding concurrent to applicable actuarial tables of solvency, they took filing holidays in conflict with laws governing oversight of Private plans.

Too big to fail and seemingly no one with the balls to punish them.
Regardless - being in a Union did NOT "protect" the members as many here assert that it does
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Old 05-04-2013, 12:52 PM
 
Location: NJ
18,665 posts, read 19,962,294 times
Reputation: 7315
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
And that should not have happened BY LAW! Those Auto companies got away with an illegal act that they should have been required to correct prior to taking funds from taxpayers and using those to bolster executive bonus's.

That was done with Federal government complicity in all facets; from their failure to file actuarial assessments on a timely basis as required by law, to their failure to fund the plans on an on-going basis
to comply with funded/unfunded liability legal requirements.

The government allowed them to get away with that and the stupid Union slept at the switch while the train rolled right on by.

At the very least; those corporate jets used to shuttle to and from begging sessions should have been sold off to bring those agreed-to benefit plans into compliance. That damn building with the huge GM logo on it might also be an asset no longer required to remind everyone of their monstrous failure to manage.

GM agreed to Pension requests at a number of collective bargaining sessions then; instead of funding concurrent to applicable actuarial tables of solvency, they took filing holidays in conflict with laws governing oversight of Private plans.

Too big to fail and seemingly no one with the balls to punish them.

EVERY asset GM has would not be enough to do it. It remains that way TODAY. GM's market cap is lower than the amount its pensions are underfunded by. At the next BK, no doubt, the remaining pensions will be shifted to the gov't..with its lower limits.
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Old 05-04-2013, 02:24 PM
 
805 posts, read 1,161,149 times
Reputation: 720
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobtn View Post
In RTW states, in unionized environments, on average 55-60% of employees elgible to join the union DO NOT join. Thank God, their rights were not violated and they were given the freedom to make this choice.

Freedom is beautiful.
RTW creates a free rider problem where the non union members are nonetheless members of the bargaining unit and therefore benefit from the contract the union negotiates with the employer as well as union representation during grievances. At the same time, those employees don't have to pay dues which pay for the cost of negotiating the contract and representing the employees during grievances.

RTW is really designed to undermine the unions so that an ever smaller percentage of workers are paying for the representation even though all the workers benefit. The fewer the employees paying dues, the higher dues charged to each individual employee (the lost revenue from many employees not joining the union has to be made up by charging the other employees more), which makes individual employees even less inclined to join. Eventually, it becomes unsustainable and union representation collapses. Which, of course, makes Corporate America happy as that means they get to pay employees less and corporate executives more.
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Old 05-04-2013, 02:45 PM
 
Location: NJ
18,665 posts, read 19,962,294 times
Reputation: 7315
RTW honors the principle of freedom of association. That is all it does, but that is a sacred right ALL Americans should have.
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Old 05-04-2013, 03:06 PM
 
805 posts, read 1,161,149 times
Reputation: 720
What about the freedom of the union and employer to enter into a contract of their choosing?
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Old 05-04-2013, 03:14 PM
 
Location: NJ
18,665 posts, read 19,962,294 times
Reputation: 7315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_the_facts View Post
What about the freedom of the union and employer to enter into a contract of their choosing?
They retain it, with 100% or 20% joining.
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Old 05-04-2013, 03:19 PM
 
Location: SE Mass
144 posts, read 123,008 times
Reputation: 71
Except that then they can't not encounter the free rider problem.
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Old 05-04-2013, 03:29 PM
 
Location: NJ
18,665 posts, read 19,962,294 times
Reputation: 7315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of FORTRAN View Post
Except that then they can't not encounter the free rider problem.
It does not impact negotiations. We have a few plants with unions which include only 30-45% of all employees. The process does not change. The funny thing is since what we will offer is based on a business model, they end up getting fair market rates, just as our non union plants get. The difference is the union collects money from those who join, to get the same things they would have gotten anyway.

Many of our plants are in regions adding jobs at a brisk pace. That affects FMV. Nashville, for instance, grew jobs at a 3.9% annual clip in 2012, faster than all other metros with 1 million or more population.
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Old 05-04-2013, 03:38 PM
 
Location: SE Mass
144 posts, read 123,008 times
Reputation: 71
But you can't compartmentalize many of the benefits of unionization to union members, e.g. improved working conditions. RTW is still a pretty reliable way of cranking up the free rider problem.
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