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That's my theory also...GZ took on a kid...the kid punched him out with one hard slam to the face...He flew backwards and his head bounced on the pavement..GZ got to his feet in a fury and shot the guy...end of story- Zimmerman was playing tough guy because he knew he could resort to the use of deadly force...if GZ did not have a gun - he would have gotten up after being knocked down and whimpered away with his tail between his legs. So is there a defense that consists of uncontrolled rage caused by humiliation?
If Zimmerman didn't have a gun he would have never got out of the truck.
Lets try this. You are walking alone in the dark and you noticed that someone is following you. This can go two ways, you can politely ask why are you following me or you can get into a defensive mode demand that he stops doing it. Your pursuer can respond aggressively or back down. If the pursuer backs down in either case the situation is avoided. If he responds with a racial remark or acts aggressively the problem escalates. Now remember you that you are not the one with a loaded gun and therefore he is in the best position to control the situation since at that time his life is not being threatened. Even if Trayvon became upset (rightly so) from someone following him zimmerman still had a gun and Trayvon did not and still could have walked away.
That really doesn't change my argument one bit.
TM would have been perfectly justified in demanding that GZ stop following him.
No. My argument is that 1 person was the aggressor from the start. A person with anger issues. TM may have been. A witness says otherwise. A weak witness I agree. But them GZ is a weak witness at best. I mean he is the one who killed a man.
I never claimed it was murder or that GZ is absolutely guilty. I am saying just because the law says its legal to follow someone doesn't make it right.
I would be annoyed if someone did it to me and I might confront it as well. Would GZ have even bothered me? I doubt it.
Some people are calling GZ a hero for his actions. Some make him out to be a saint.
He is none of these things
Okay, point taken. But my point is that we do not lock people up based on the argument you have made. Maybe you have not advocated such, but it seems to be a common sentiment around here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellemint
Even if Trayvon was the aggressor, self-defense allows you to defend yourself to a level commensurate with the threat involved. Trayvon wasn't armed. Zimmerman was. There is no evidence that Zimmerman was receiving a life-threatening beating. He's simply not beat up enough. And there was no DNA of Zimmerman's on Trayvon's hands, which there would have to be if he had been holding Zimmerman's head and pounding it on the pavement, punching him in the face, and holding his hand over Zimmerman's mouth and nose, all of which Zimmerman claims happened. All of which occurred when Zimmerman was supposedly screaming for help, yet none of his saliva on Zimmerman's hands. And remember by then Zimmerman's nose was bleeding. Yet no DNA on Trayvon's hands. Explain that.
Also, if Trayvon had seen or felt the presence of Zimmerman's gun, he might have felt his life was in danger, which could explain the "assault", only there's not much evidence that a life-threatening assault even occurred.
That's all well and good, but what you're doing now is jumping into a completely different argument that has nothing to do with the one you were making before.
I really don't care to jump into speculation about what may or may not have happened. Suffice to say that if TM started a physical altercation in which GZ had a reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death, he was absolutely justified in using lethal force. If not, then he wasn't. I'll leave that discussion to you all, and the lawyers.
And I never attempted to explain away any of the physical evidence, nor do I care enough to do so, so I don't see why you are now confronting me with it.
Okay, point taken. But my point is that we do not lock people up based on the argument you have made. Maybe you have not advocated such, but it seems to be a common sentiment around here.
That's all well and good, but what you're doing now is jumping into a completely different argument that has nothing to do with the one you were making before.
I really don't care to jump into speculation about what may or may not have happened. Suffice to say that if TM started a physical altercation in which GZ had a reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death, he was absolutely justified in using lethal force. If not, then he wasn't. I'll leave that discussion to you all, and the lawyers.
And I never attempted to explain away any of the physical evidence, nor do I care enough to do so, so I don't see why you are now confronting me with it.
How could Zimmerman have been in fear for his life if he wasn't being given a savage beating by Trayvon? What, Trayvon yelled at him or gave him a mean look? Also, that is what Zimmerman says. Now you want to assume that Zimmerman just out and out shot Trayvon without provocation?
Okay, point taken. But my point is that we do not lock people up based on the argument you have made. Maybe you have not advocated such, but it seems to be a common sentiment around here.
That's all well and good, but what you're doing now is jumping into a completely different argument that has nothing to do with the one you were making before.
I really don't care to jump into speculation about what may or may not have happened. Suffice to say that if TM started a physical altercation in which GZ had a reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death, he was absolutely justified in using lethal force. If not, then he wasn't. I'll leave that discussion to you all, and the lawyers.
And I never attempted to explain away any of the physical evidence, nor do I care enough to do so, so I don't see why you are now confronting me with it.
Fair enough and I don't disagree with you. Hell TM was no saint and had some issues of his own going on.
I have an issue with power mad wanna be's who feel its ok to harass people for no valid reason. I would like to believe our country can be better than that.
I don't defend TM. I question GZ's story beginning to end.
As a gun owner I value that freedom also. we don't need GZ types going cowboy because they have a gun.
I really want to know what happened. We never will tho. One person who could tell us is dead and the other cant seem to tell the same story twice.
To be honest my only interest in this thread is interrupting the GZ hero worship.
On a previous thread I argued with people who referred to TM as a child. He wasn't a child he was a young man.
I think that they were both bonafide idiots. A pair of wanna bes and the one with the gun won.
How could Zimmerman have been in fear for his life if he wasn't being given a savage beating by Trayvon? What, Trayvon yelled at him or gave him a mean look? Also, that is what Zimmerman says. Now you want to assume that Zimmerman just out and out shot Trayvon without provocation?
Seriously? The guy was a wanna be with an ego. He was scared for his life the second TM planted him on his back.
How could Zimmerman have been in fear for his life if he wasn't being given a savage beating by Trayvon? What, Trayvon yelled at him or gave him a mean look? Also, that is what Zimmerman says. Now you want to assume that Zimmerman just out and out shot Trayvon without provocation?
Like I said, you're jumping into an entirely different argument than your earlier one, and the only reason I commented in the first place was to clearly point out the massive flaw in that argument, as I've seen it re-posted on this site a good hundred times.
I really don't expect a person to make a medical judgement on the severity of the beating they are receiving while they are receiving it, nor does anyone else, which is why we go by reasonable fear, which can be established were you to believe all or most of GZ's story (head being banged on the concrete).
I don't know if he really had reasonable fear or not, nor do I particularly care about this case enough to delve into it deeply enough to make a judgement I'd be comfortable standing by.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01
Fair enough and I don't disagree with you. Hell TM was no saint and had some issues of his own going on.
I have an issue with power mad wanna be's who feel its ok to harass people for no valid reason. I would like to believe our country can be better than that.
I don't defend TM. I question GZ's story beginning to end.
As a gun owner I value that freedom also. we don't need GZ types going cowboy because they have a gun.
I really want to know what happened. We never will tho. One person who could tell us is dead and the other cant seem to tell the same story twice.
To be honest my only interest in this thread is interrupting the GZ hero worship.
On a previous thread I argued with people who referred to TM as a child. He wasn't a child he was a young man.
I think that they were both bonafide idiots. A pair of wanna bes and the one with the gun won.
Well my only interest in this thread was interrupting the TM saint worship, and the flawed assertion that by following someone you make yourself liable for anything and everything that happens afterwards, so we have common ground as two people who aren't too fond of either of these guys.
Seriously? The guy was a wanna be with an ego. He was scared for his life the second TM planted him on his back.
I don't disagree. The point I'm getting at is it doesn't matter if Zimmerman felt threatened, the question is would a reasonable person have felt threatened by the level of violence from Trayvon? And there's no evidence that Trayvon was beating Zimmerman to a pulp. There's evidence that he punched him in the nose, and knocked Zimmerman to the ground. That's about all there is clear evidence of. Thus shooting Trayvon to death was unjustified.
And yours isn't???????
Jesus you paint GZ to be a saint...
GZ had no history of anger issues? None?
Pushed a cop when he was drunk. Fact
Fired from a job for throwing a girl across a room.
Domestic violence charges.
He aggressively pursued a man because the man was walking down the street. He didn't like the man's looks.
You make GZ sound like he is a victim. If he is a victim its due to his own stupidity and arrogance.
No rational person does what he did.
He is your common everyday wanna be. He is the kind of guy who makes all gun owners look bad.
Definitely a post from the progressive left...."anger issues" - "throwing a GIRL across a room" "Domestic VIOLENCE charges" "pushed a cop when he was DRUNK" - makes "ALL gun owners look bad: Do I smell liberal bias here? Just as I thought...Martin the innocent child who is black represents the progressive left....and Zimmerman the gun totting woman beater represents the conservative right........
........What a joke...both these guys are and were A-holes....The media and the politicians are going to milk this one...Neither Zimmerman or Martin can really speak for themselves...But the liberal media can...>So as I saw the term "anger issues" all I could think of was the left....The sweet left should have given Zimmerman one of those classic anger management courses and Martin would be alive to graduate and work as a social worker...?
The point I'm getting at is it doesn't matter if Zimmerman felt threatened,
You can't possibly believe that.
Clue: It's ALL that matters.
It's what YOU think that doesn't matter.
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