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Old 11-08-2013, 04:39 PM
 
1,733 posts, read 1,826,354 times
Reputation: 1135

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
Nothing that forces other people to work on your behalf against their will is a right.
So if you get arrested, you do not have a right to a lawyer if you can't afford one?

Quick, tell the courts that, I think they've misunderstood! They'll be glad to have you explain it to them.

 
Old 11-08-2013, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Texas
44,258 posts, read 64,537,181 times
Reputation: 73944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim Reader View Post
So if you get arrested, you do not have a right to a lawyer if you can't afford one?

Quick, tell the courts that, I think they've misunderstood! They'll be glad to have you explain it to them.
Are the lawyers working against their will to provide this service? Do they just call up any criminal attorney and say, "Hey, you have to do this"?
Or are specially selected lawyers who chose to particularly pick this branch of law in order to fulfill the mandate working to provide this?

You want to hire some select group of physicians to work directly for the government...you know how hard it is to find people willing to do that? The government got around that conveniently by passing the ultimate unfunded mandate - EMTALA.
As it is, EMTALA requires many physicians to work for free or risk being fined and sanctioned.

Obviously this matters not to you. To others, forced unreimbursed work = slavery.
 
Old 11-08-2013, 04:45 PM
 
5,915 posts, read 4,823,432 times
Reputation: 1398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim Reader View Post
So if you get arrested, you do not have a right to a lawyer if you can't afford one?

Quick, tell the courts that, I think they've misunderstood! They'll be glad to have you explain it to them.
That's a constitutional right. Healthcare is not.
 
Old 11-08-2013, 05:01 PM
 
1,733 posts, read 1,826,354 times
Reputation: 1135
Im just going to quote a post I made on page 4:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim Reader View Post
Thats because there are different kinds of rights. The kind you are talking about is known as "natural rights". Basically, rights to not have stuff like your life or liberty taken away from you.

There is another class of rights "claim rights" which are rights you claim from others. These include a newborn babys right to nuture. If a baby or child dies from neglect, its rights were violated, and someone will go to jail. Right to vote.

Or, more closely related your right to a lawyer if charged with something. Even if you can't pay for one, one will be provided at taxpayer expense.

To keep people from being overrun by legalese they got no background to understand from state or private actors.

Such rights are not based in things you naturally posses, but in laws written into a countrys legal system.

Many nations have found it ethical, economic or practical to include healthcare in the list of such rights, and had very good results from it. Therefore, many people in America feel it is a good idea.
 
Old 11-08-2013, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,296 posts, read 121,067,249 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
Are the lawyers working against their will to provide this service? Do they just call up any criminal attorney and say, "Hey, you have to do this"?
Or are specially selected lawyers who chose to particularly pick this branch of law in order to fulfill the mandate working to provide this?

You want to hire some select group of physicians to work directly for the government...you know how hard it is to find people willing to do that? The government got around that conveniently by passing the ultimate unfunded mandate - EMTALA.
As it is, EMTALA requires many physicians to work for free or risk being fined and sanctioned.

Obviously this matters not to you. To others, forced unreimbursed work = slavery.
Who is saying that the doctors won't get paid? It's usually the hospital that gets stiffed; the staff gets paid.

Some state bar associations "suggest" that lawyers do "pro bono" work.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...56146854,d.aWc
 
Old 11-08-2013, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Maryland about 20 miles NW of DC
6,104 posts, read 6,007,486 times
Reputation: 2479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little-Acorn View Post
Health care insurance started going downhill in this country during the Great Depression and World War II, despite the numerous technical advances that were made during that period.

Then-President FDR clamped huge restrictions onto many parts of the economy during the Depression (resulting in that depression stretching out further than any ever had in world history), and they became even worse during WWII. One of them was wage and price controls, which became onerous as many able-bodied men joined the armed services to fight in the war.

Attracting talented people to fulfill the jobs they left was tough enough with so many good men joining up, and the govt's wage controls made the situation worse when employers found they couldn't offer higher wages to get people to hire on. Whether this was justifiable, not to say effective, by the war emergency is debatable.

Employers screamed bloody murder as their businesses approached collapse due to unfilled jobs, and while government refused to lift its wage and price controls, they announced the employers could offer benefits in lieu of pay to attract workers. One benefit was a tax exemption for employer-provided health insurance.

This helped somewhat, but with an employer only able to offer a few insurance plans, it locked employees into fairly uncompetetive market unless he changed jobs. And FDR's relatively new policy of "tax withholding" was extended to the employee part of the payments for insurance, further insulating the employee fro the gut-check of having to write weekly or monthly checks to the insurance company.

Employers offered "Cadillac" plans in their efforts to attract workers, and the employees seldom saw the actual cost of those expensive plans, which often paid for routine medications and office visits formerly not covered by real insurance plans. That, plus the lack of competition most insurance companies found themselves facing, removed a lot of their impetus to pare costs. And employees became used to health care which "seemed free", and started thinking of it as something akin to a "right", since it (sort of) appeared to cost nothing.

When the war ended, government did NOT remove the tax exemption for employer-provided health insurance even though the circumstances that made it desirable were now gone. And so health insurance has existed in a strange nether world ever since for most people, with employees of a company locked into the few (or one) insurance plan offered by that company with little likelihood they will ever leave it. At the same time it appeared to cost little or nothing, with even routine services (far beyond the major-event coverage real insurance is for) included and seeming "complimentary".

Fast forward to the 21st century. Now we have self-serving politicians screaming from the rooftops that health care is somehow a "right", though it comes nowhere close to resembling a right to liberty, right to speech, right to self-defense etc. - all of which are based on the fundamental right to be left alone and to associate only voluntarily with others. And most people, used to generations of "free" health care that was caused by that very government long ago, are actually believing it, despite the clear unworkability of the idea, the unnecessary expense and clumsiness of one-size-fits-all (or even three-sizes-fit-all) policies administered from thousand of miles away in Washington.

The cockeyed notion that we somehow have a "right" to have a broken arm set or an infection cleaned and treated by others, came (as so many cockeyed ideas do) from government intrusion into private matters in the first place.

We should be thankful that the government didn't offer tax breaks for food purchased by one's employer. Or by now, the same deluded people would be screaming that they had a "right" to food (some actually believe this one too, after generations of food stamps). Ditto for rent, phone service, etc., all of which have been tainted at one time or another by government programs to make them nearly "free".

Weaning Americans off these destructive addictions to "free" necessities and "rights" that aren't rights and never were, will be painful, as breaking an addiction always is. But it is no less necessary, if we are to survive as sovereign citizens in a free society.

A simple question , Do you have a rights to Life, Liberty or Happiness? If you don't have the right to recieve healthcare all this joke rights like the Right to lifeor happiness or Liberty mean absolutly NOTHING BUDDY! They don't mean anything to the DEAD!!!
 
Old 11-08-2013, 08:40 PM
 
Location: Pacific NW
9,437 posts, read 7,393,470 times
Reputation: 7979
Quote:
Originally Posted by dv1033 View Post
Right? A lot of these far right conservatives seem pretty intimate with liberals.... Always knowing what liberals think....
It's not hard to know what liberals think since they're CONSTANTLY telling you how they know what is best and how stupid anyone who disagrees with them is. Liberals never listen, just yap yap yap.
 
Old 11-09-2013, 10:18 AM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
10,581 posts, read 9,808,685 times
Reputation: 4174
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwruckman View Post
A simple question , Do you have a rights to Life, Liberty or Happiness? If you don't have the right to recieve healthcare all this joke rights like the Right to lifeor happiness or Liberty mean absolutly NOTHING BUDDY!
(patiently)

Of course you have the right to access health care.

You just don't have the right to force someone else to pay for yours.
 
Old 11-09-2013, 10:19 AM
 
20,947 posts, read 19,099,520 times
Reputation: 10270
I firmly believe that every single American citizen should have ACCESS to health care.

That doesn't mean that I should pay for you.
 
Old 11-09-2013, 10:30 AM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
10,581 posts, read 9,808,685 times
Reputation: 4174
Aw, gee. Pointing out the facts to these leftists, ruins their whole day. Must you???
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