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Old 12-01-2007, 02:48 PM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,220,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Try understanding where Venezuela has had to come from. Try judging Chavez by what he has tried to do, and what he has succeeded in doing.
Having lived there, I think this is one part most people don't realize. Venezuela was a much worse place then as it is today, only difference being is that the past leadership licked America's boots so if this is the standard to judge other nations then...

Americans will judge this man on the sound bytes he tosses at Bush, which is funny since Bush has a 20% or so approval rating but I think Americans feel they should be the only ones to bash the prez.

I liken this relationship we have with Venezuela like that of a junkie to his dealer. The junkie walks up to his dealer on the street corner and the dealer says, "Hey you stupid moron junkie, what does your low life backside want today" and the junkie stands back and takes it because he really really wants to get high so bad he is more than willing to sacrifice his dignity, personal health, and esteem to get it. Meanwhile, there is a line around the "Chavez-oil-for-cheap" store with the likes of Russia and China begging for a larger slice of the dope.
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Old 12-01-2007, 03:09 PM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,529,153 times
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The analogy in Para-3 may be apt enough, but leaving aside the aura that drugs shed over the whole scenario, why is it that these two have not found their way to cooperation. Each one is useful to the other. Whence the sense of automatic friction between them?
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Old 12-01-2007, 04:04 PM
 
Location: in my imagination
13,621 posts, read 21,439,223 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
One-size-fits-all. How convenient. Meanwhile, and at least as far as his domestic programs go, I don't at all doubt that Chavez has an 'I am the one' mindset. But it is parallel to the same sense that Alex Rodriguez has when batting in the bottom of the ninth with the bases loaded and two outs and the Yankees trailing by three runs. I am the one, because there is something that needs to be done here, and no one else who can do it. Try understanding where Venezuela has had to come from. Try judging Chavez by what he has tried to do, and what he has succeeded in doing. Instead of offering knee-jerk and poorly drawn right-wing anti-socialist rant, try figuring out the first reason why the US has not been working cooperatively with him from the start...
got to love it.Just tell me why your beloved leaders like Chavez and Castro have so many people wanting to bail out of those countries and come to America and not just rich ones?Im not offering a knee jerk opinion,and I'll fight (peacefully) to prevent people like you who admire him so much from turning America into a place like that.All you see is a rich vs poor view,your version of politics ensures people will remain poor,just throwing a few more crumbs their way to think they have more.
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Old 12-01-2007, 04:06 PM
 
Location: in my imagination
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Originally Posted by saganista View Post
True, but it was the 1790's...
and you'll improve on it?
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Old 12-01-2007, 04:27 PM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,220,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
The analogy in Para-3 may be apt enough, but leaving aside the aura that drugs shed over the whole scenario, why is it that these two have not found their way to cooperation. Each one is useful to the other. Whence the sense of automatic friction between them?
In the case of Venezuela, there is the global market that is demanding oil bad enough that justifies their investment into the tar sands of the Orinoco. Whereas the United States has limited supplies that are friendly to her. Good or bad, right or wrong, the US has just about peed off everyone at this point.

The friction in what would normally be a smooth relationship is that Chavez added a tax per barrel when he came to power that amounted to like a dollar a barrel. This money was to be used solely for social issues of the people, and mostly the poor. The US objected despite having paid almost next to no tax for years from previous leaders and people always love someone who "sticks it to the man". Given Chavez's tendency to stick a finger in the eye of Washington, it is pretty clear that it makes him wildly popular at home and quite despised up north.

I suspect if the war in Iraq had went as some claimed it would have, that a connection would be made to Iran, then the cry for regime change, then an overthrow or flat out invasion. Not like we haven't seen this scenario before.
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Old 12-01-2007, 04:43 PM
 
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If we don't get the oil from Venezuela we'll get it from someone else.
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Old 12-01-2007, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Journey's End
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I would suspect if getting oil "elsewhere" or from "someone else" were so easy, we'd be buying oil from that country today.
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Old 12-01-2007, 05:00 PM
 
2,433 posts, read 6,687,418 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheroad View Post
I would suspect if getting oil "elsewhere" or from "someone else" were so easy, we'd be buying oil from that country today.
What I mean is there is no oil shortage. Over the last decade or so we've done a very good job of weaning ourselves off of middle eastern oil. We still get some from the middle east, but nothing compared to what we used to do. We produce a lot of our own oil, plus we import a lot from Canada and Mexico. The oil's out there.

If Chavez refuses to send oil to the US, his country will still keep producing oil, and it's going to go somewhere. We'll just have to either increase production of our own, or get more from Canada or the middle east.
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Old 12-01-2007, 06:07 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,169 posts, read 24,387,151 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Well, at least they outgrew Republicanism...
No, they couldn't measure up.
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Old 12-01-2007, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Sacramento
14,044 posts, read 27,276,355 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye48 View Post
If we don't get the oil from Venezuela we'll get it from someone else.
Alberta, Canada seems like a good source to me:

Alberta Energy: Oil Sands
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