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why do some people want to be apologist for healthcare system?
So if a healthcare worker (not just a nurse, but most likely a nurse due to amount of contact) gets sick from Ebola at a hospital it is because
1 - the strain has evolved, and precautions are not sufficient
2 - the strain has not evolved, and precautions being taken were not sufficient
So, when doctors used to go from the morgue to delivering babies, without washing hands, and causing huge complications with delivery. . was it the doctors fault? Yes. Did the doctors grasp what was needed to perform their actions without making people sick? no
So its pretty obvious that number 2 resulted in two nurses getting sick at Texas
no other facility has had a problem, and no additional healthcare workers getting sick
By fault i'm sticking to the stickiest definition:
1) Hospitals with appropriate rules have a proven track record of caring for Ebola patients without risking healthcare workers lives (6 total patients)
2)Texas Hospital cared for 1 patient and resulted in two illnesses.
I see no reason that Nurses (that is why I say healthcare workers or system) should be blamed primarily. I've seen no evidence that they were told 100% what to do, and ignored the rules blatantly.
Yet I have seen a lot of evidence that if the rules are precautions are followed, Ebola doesn't pose a risk to healthcare workers.
This is not accurate in the least. Doctors Without Borders lost 6 of it's doctors to Ebola and you know they follow the rules.
This is not accurate in the least. Doctors Without Borders lost 6 of it's doctors to Ebola and you know they follow the rules.
Many of the doctors and nurses that have been lost were overworked and trying to do too much. Dr. Hamarr Khan and one nurse were trying to take care of about 30 patients by themselves, after two of his very experienced coleagues, nurses Mbalu Sankoh, and Alex Moigboi, died from the disease. Khan died in July, of Ebola.
Two people. Thirty patients with Ebola. In Africa. It would be amazing if anyone did not catch the disease working 15 or 16 hours a day. Fatigue causes mistakes, as does the physical stress of wearing PPE for long hours in African temperatures. There is a reason work hours for airline pilots are limited.
I truly don't think the majority of posters that you are arguing with are trying to say that the nurses screwed up, at all. It's not a reflection on them that they hadn't been trained or prepared to deal with a deadly virus that had previously only been seen on the other side of the world. The virus seems to be hard to catch when the patient isn't actively shedding, or even in the early stages of shedding. But when the later stages of shedding occur, the viral load is so high that it becomes highly contagious. Both nurses dealt with the patient when the viral load was skyrocketing. The nurses weren't trained to deal with this SPECIFIC threat. That doesn't make them screw-ups, or anything less than highly trained and competent professionals dealing with something they weren't familiar with.
It's nice of you to try to build a consensus, but no, that's not what's been happening on this thread. If I had the inclination, and I really wanted to hijack this thread, I could go back and find all the posts about nurses breaching protocol, nurses not notifying the doctors about Duncan's travel to Africa, Amber Vinson traveling to Ohio and back, with the blessing of the CDC while their fuhrer said she shouldn't have done so, uneducated nurses, and so on. And I'm truly annoyed with people trying to make the nurses sound dumb as if they weren't educated, trained whatever you want to call it in PPE. Frieden said any hospital could care for an Ebola patient with the protocols in place on September 30. Then, a couple of weeks later, his agency changed the protocols to make them more stringent. Now what are we to make of that? The protocols are perfect, so let's change them??? Do people on this thread really think that these women had never, ever used PPE before, had never, ever taken care of a patient in isolation? Good grief, when I was in nursing school in the late 60s, before "universal precautions" and all, we were taught to take off our gowns by folding the dirty side in. Do people really think nurses can't apply their scientific knowledge to different problems, that they have to be "trained" like seals balancing a ball on their noses, to each specific disease? Guess so!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisFromChicago
why do some people want to be apologist for healthcare system?
So if a healthcare worker (not just a nurse, but most likely a nurse due to amount of contact) gets sick from Ebola at a hospital it is because
1 - the strain has evolved, and precautions are not sufficient
2 - the strain has not evolved, and precautions being taken were not sufficient
So, when doctors used to go from the morgue to delivering babies, without washing hands, and causing huge complications with delivery. . was it the doctors fault? Yes. Did the doctors grasp what was needed to perform their actions without making people sick? no
So its pretty obvious that number 2 resulted in two nurses getting sick at Texas
no other facility has had a problem, and no additional healthcare workers getting sick
By fault i'm sticking to the stickiest definition:
1) Hospitals with appropriate rules have a proven track record of caring for Ebola patients without risking healthcare workers lives (6 total patients)
2)Texas Hospital cared for 1 patient and resulted in two illnesses.
I see no reason that Nurses (that is why I say healthcare workers or system) should be blamed primarily. I've seen no evidence that they were told 100% what to do, and ignored the rules blatantly.
Yet I have seen a lot of evidence that if the rules are precautions are followed, Ebola doesn't pose a risk to healthcare workers.
Starting from the middle, what does the teal have to do with anything? I'd like an answer.
Now, did you ever think the cause of an illness might be 3) the viral load overwhelmed the protocols? Oh, no, that could never happen, because that would mean most anyone who provided care might be vulnerable, not just these two who needed "training". And it would mean the protocols aren't perfect.
Re: the blue, thanks for that anyway. Some on this forum have implied that. People have postulated all kinds of nutty ways those two got infected. "Maybe a pen." Right, they both dipped their pens in blood, vomit or diarrhea and then put them in their mouths. "Their necks were uncovered". Maybe, maybe not. But did they have any cuts on their necks? Do people touch their necks a lot, then put their fingers in their mouths, or eyes, or noses? "They didn't double, triple, whatever, glove". Oh? You all who are saying this, how do you know that? The funniest thing was when someone said they wouldn't bring a computer into Duncan's room b/c it might get contaminated and it's a valuable piece of equipment! Apparently, letting a nurse get contaminated is of less importance.
You've seen all this evidence where? The other patients treated during this epidemic were not nearly as sick as Mr. Duncan. Brantly walked off the plane in Atlanta. Ashoka Mukpa was all covered up when he was brought to Omaha. I believe I even quoted someone from the U of Nebraska who said exactly that, that they were in a much better situation than Texas Presbyterian b/c they knew the guy had Ebola from the get-go. (Or maybe I posted that on NPR, which is no better than this board, believe me.)
It's all her fault! Did you read the decision tree?
Why can no one accept that these nurses may have done nothing wrong, there may have been nothing wrong with their equipment, and yet they still got Ebola? Why do people think that everything we know about Ebola NOW is all there is to know about it, that there is no possible circumstance under which following these guidelines to the letter will still not protect you?
I'm no apologist for hospital administrators, Heaven knows, but maybe it wasn't their fault, either.
I have been in health care a long time. I've had to unlearn a lot. Maybe you will too, some day.
As for these other hospitals, heck, they all knew their patients had Ebola prior to admission. I was in Omaha when the cameraman was admitted. Now he's another one who doesn't know how he could have gotten Ebola, and the method postulated (cleaning a car) sounds far-fetched per guidelines.
"Speaking at Monday’s news conference, Dr. Ali Khan, dean of the college of public health at the University of Nebraska Medical Center, said the situation in Omaha is far different than in Dallas, where a hospital has come under criticism when a man suffering from Ebola-like symptoms was initially sent home by a hospital before being admitted three days later with worsened symptoms. “It’s a controlled situation where we know what the person has,†Dr. Khan said." U.S. Journalist With Ebola Arrives in Nebraska for Treatment - WSJ
I don't know why people rag on doctors. They work as hard as us for more hours and more days on. They are tireless and amazing people.
Yes, they do. But I will say this, too. There is a subset of doctors who think of nurses as "useful idiots" at best. This type of thinking is well represented on this thread, too. "Nurses weren't trained", etc. In the story from NPR: The 'Time-Honored Tradition' Of Blaming The Nurse : NPR, the doctor being interviewed acknowledged that he used to never read anything signed by an RN. So maybe this is how the fact of Duncan's African travel got missed; the doctor didn't think it was necessary to read anything written by "just a nurse". Editorial: Not 'Just a Nurse', Don't Call Me <i>Just</i> a Nurse*|*Kateri Allard
Yes, they do. But I will say this, too. There is a subset of doctors who think of nurses as "useful idiots" at best. This type of thinking is well represented on this thread, too. "Nurses weren't trained", etc. In the story from NPR: The 'Time-Honored Tradition' Of Blaming The Nurse : NPR, the doctor being interviewed acknowledged that he used to never read anything signed by an RN. So maybe this is how the fact of Duncan's African travel got missed; the doctor didn't think it was necessary to read anything written by "just a nurse". Editorial: Not 'Just a Nurse', Don't Call Me <i>Just</i> a Nurse*|*Kateri Allard
Katiana, you have done wonderful work explaining your position, and the unfortunate way all of this junk has fallen on our nurses.
I recently had the unfortunate experience of seeing hospital ICU nurses in action over a period of several days. The caring, dedication, professionalism and special touch devoted to the care of someone I love, touched me very deeply.
When the head of the CDC said "Obviously there has been a breach in the protocol, and we will find out what it is," he insulted tens of thousands of people that are far better human beings than he is. It was disgusting to learn that his first and firm conclusion was that the nurses had screwed up. What a POS.
Anyone still apologizing for this jerk at this late date, or still picking on the Dallas nurses, is out of bounds.
I was going to say the same thing (that the big Ebola scare is petering out just like the H1N1 did).
The plain old flu kills more people every year than these hyped up "diseases".
Too bad for the globalists. Their second attempt to try to create a big pandemic failed also. Boo Hoo. I guess it is back to the drawing board for them to figure out another way to try to kill a bunch of us off or "frighten" us so we'll be easier to "control".
I was going to say the same thing (that the big Ebola scare is petering out just like the H1N1 did).
The plain old flu kills more people every year than these hyped up "diseases".
Too bad for the globalists. Their second attempt to try to create a big pandemic failed also. Boo Hoo. I guess it is back to the drawing board for them to figure out another way to try to kill a bunch of us off or "frighten" us so we'll be easier to "control".
Create a pandemic?
The experts never predicted an Ebola pandemic; in fact, they said one would not happen in the US.
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"Their necks were uncovered". Maybe, maybe not. But did they have any cuts on their necks? Do people touch their necks a lot, then put their fingers in their mouths, or eyes, or noses? "They didn't double, triple, whatever, glove". Oh? You all who are saying this, how do you know that? The funniest thing was when someone said they wouldn't bring a computer into Duncan's room b/c it might get contaminated and it's a valuable piece of equipment! Apparently, letting a nurse get contaminated is of less importance. 
