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I have not seen this evidence that Hyperthetic has that says Nina Pham was only singly gloved; in fact, in the Boston Globe article that I linked she talks of the nurses being double gloved.
From the Boson Globe (italics) "Pham first saw Duncan the evening of Sept. 29, the day after he was taken by ambulance to the emergency room." Note: unlike the ambulance driver who drove the NBC guy from Eppley Airfield to the U of N hospital, I'd bet this ambulance driver was not wearing any protective equipment. "The next morning, Pham noted a nurse entered Duncan’s room wearing a face shield, double gown and protective footwear. It’s not clear if she was referring to herself.
On Oct. 1, Pham wrote in her morning progress note that two nurses entered Duncan’s room wearing Tyvek suits, respirators, triple booties, triple gloves, and an apron. . . . Pham was also in Duncan’s room Oct. 7, the day before he died. . . . Pham’s notes describe nurses going in and out of Duncan’s room wearing protective gear to treat him and to mop the floor with bleach."" . . . Vinson. . . She was with him Sept. 30, the day he tested positive for Ebola. And like Pham, the reports say she wore protective gear and a face shield, hazardous materials suit, and protective footwear. . . . Early the next morning she came in again, wearing all the protective gear mentioned before and a respirator mask. Later that night she cared for him again, with similar protection and with Duncan exhibiting similar ailments. . . The evening before Duncan died Vinson was again at his bedside, another nurse wrote. Vinson herself wrote that she entered the room wearing proper full protective equipment and gave him a bag of saline in an IV.
I'll be damned if I'm going to put up with someone calling these women "uneducated health care workers".
Why do you guys keep hammering away at these nurses, keep carrying on about how stupid and uneducated they were? What does that gain you?
No one has called them stupid or uneducated. Do you believe it is impossible for an educated, intelligent nurse to make a mistake, especially when confronted with a situation for which s/he has no experience and for which she has had no specific training* to perform?
*I know you think nurses are not trained to do anything, but the word applies to actual hands on skills. you have to practice them.
No one has called them stupid or uneducated. Do you believe it is impossible for an educated, intelligent nurse to make a mistake, especially when confronted with a situation for which s/he has no experience and for which she has had no specific training* to perform?
*I know you think nurses are not trained to do anything, but the word applies to actual hands on skills. you have to practice them.
The heck no one called them uneudcated! ChrisFromChicago did, just this morning:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisFromChicago
I know what you all are thinking
Man, we were nuts - thinking this Ebola was some scary thing. This Chris from Chicago was dead right. No issue, except for poorly educated healthcare workers
man- i wish I could rep chris for being so right, and us being so wrong
Yes nurses, and doctors, make mistakes, probably every day. Most of them are harmless. And just how do you know that Ms. Pham and Ms. Vinson had never worn any type of PPE before? Do you think they never cared for an isolation patient before, ever, using CDC protocols?
Here's probably the most honest thing Frieden ever said about this situation:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ebo...ritual-n230206 "The CDC had first issued Ebola guidelines to U.S. hospitals in 2008 and updated them just this past August, but the infections of nurses Nina Pham and Amber Vinson show they were not clear enough, CDC Director Dr. Thomas Frieden told reporters Monday night.
"The hospital caring for the first patient, Mr. Duncan, relied on these guidelines and two healthcare workers became infected. This is unacceptable," Frieden told reporters.
"We may never know exactly how that happened, but the bottom line is they didn’t work for that hospital," he added. "
Yes nurses, and doctors, make mistakes, probably every day. Most of them are harmless. And just how do you know that Ms. Pham and Ms. Vinson had never worn any type of PPE before? Do you think they never cared for an isolation patient before, ever, using CDC protocols?
And some mistakes are not harmless. Neither Ms. Pham nor Ms. Vinson had cared for an Ebola patient before.
Neither of them had used PPE as is required for Ebola, not just standard universal precautions, including the special procedures needed to remove it.
The 60 Minutes segment with the four nurses has photos showing how the gear they used changed.
It is clear that the gear used at first is inadequate for taking care of Ebola patients. That was changed by the hospital, though it took a few days. That provided a clear opportunity for either of the nurses to get contaminated. Pham was involved in the care of Duncan from the day he was admitted. I am not sure about Vinson.
Inadequate gear + inexperience = increased risk of error.
It is clear that the gear used at first is inadequate for taking care of Ebola patients. That was changed by the hospital, though it took a few days. That provided a clear opportunity for either of the nurses to get contaminated. Pham was involved in the care of Duncan from the day he was admitted. I am not sure about Vinson.
Inadequate gear + inexperience = increased risk of error.
I'm not getting into an argument about medical errors.
The 60 minutes transcript doesn't say much. Most of the testimony is from an ER nurse, who was not caring for Duncan in the ICU. She says her neck was exposed, IN THE ER!
"On September 29, Duncan was carried from the emergency department to intensive care. Nurse Nina Pham, who was involved in the transfer, would become the first person to catch the virus in the United States.
It took 48 hours to get Duncan's positive test results. And by then the hospital, on its own, had equipped the staff with suits that allowed no skin to be exposed. It would be another three weeks before the CDC made this its new standard. Then the hospital moved out all of the patients in medical intensive care and reconfigured the 24-bed unit for just one patient."
There is not ONE WORD about what Nina Pham and Amber Vinson were wearing, specifically.
I'm not getting into an argument about medical errors.
The 60 minutes transcript doesn't say much. Most of the testimony is from an ER nurse, who was not caring for Duncan in the ICU. She says her neck was exposed, IN THE ER!
"On September 29, Duncan was carried from the emergency department to intensive care. Nurse Nina Pham, who was involved in the transfer, would become the first person to catch the virus in the United States.
It took 48 hours to get Duncan's positive test results. And by then the hospital, on its own, had equipped the staff with suits that allowed no skin to be exposed. It would be another three weeks before the CDC made this its new standard. Then the hospital moved out all of the patients in medical intensive care and reconfigured the 24-bed unit for just one patient."
There is not ONE WORD about what Nina Pham and Amber Vinson were wearing, specifically.
If you watch the video (not the transcript), there are photos of the actual gear. The fluid resistant, full coverage gear was not available for about three days according to the nurses interviewed. That means Pham worked at least three days without it. I do not know about Vinson, as I stated earlier.
By not addressing medical errors you are stating you think it is impossible for Pham or Vinson to have made a mistake. Do you really think that is true?
Somebody has wasted much time trying to get everybody to say that nothing these nurses did was wrong as if it is a personal reflection on her.
Like every nurse in the world is absolutely perfect and god forbid anybody would suggest otherwise.
If you watch the video (not the transcript), there are photos of the actual gear. The fluid resistant, full coverage gear was not available for about three days according to the nurses interviewed. That means Pham worked at least three days without it. I do not know about Vinson, as I stated earlier.
By not addressing medical errors you are stating you think it is impossible for Pham or Vinson to have made a mistake. Do you really think that is true?
Those nurses interviewed on 60 minutes were not in the ICU. We have Nina Pham's notes written at the time the care was being given, that state otherwise. But of course, those who weren't there would know better. Who would turn down an opportunity to be on 60 minutes, such a well-respected news show, not. Anyone who comes to a conclusion by watching 60 minutes is really reaching. And hey, it's supposed to be hard to catch, anyway. Some minor contamination shouldn't have made any difference. After all, no one in Duncan's household got it, and you can't tell me that none of them ever touched some of his secretions and then maybe "touched their face" or whatever. He was no sicker 5 minutes after he was admitted than he was that last hour or so at home. And you can't seriously believe that this man who was so sick he had to arrive at the hospital by ambulance was cleaning up his own wastes effectively.
I have never said it was impossible for Ms. Pham and Ms. Vinson to have made a mistake. I do think it unlikely that they were a couple of klutzy nurses who made major mistakes in protocol. They were working in an ICU and giving very intensive care. Therein lies the difference between them and all the Monday Morning Quarterbacks.
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