Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'll try to make this simple to understand for those who are having issues.
If a business OFFERS a product or service in their business, then they can not discriminate based on the sex, race, religion, age (except for age restricted items) or sexual orientation (in some states) of the person purchasing the product or service.
So can a baker who sells wedding cakes refuse to provide services to a gay customer seeking a rainbow colored, penis shaped wedding cake or not?
You stated that a baker could refuse to provide a wedding cake to a gay couple, based solely on the design of the cake (i.e., a rainbow colored, penis shaped cake). That was your statement.
Changing the goal posts once again!
You would be an AWESOME teaching aid for a debate class!
Yes. If they do not OFFER penis shaped cakes they do not have to sell them to anyone.
If the gay couple ask for a 3 tier round cake with sugar flowers just like any one of hundreds that the baker makes, then they should be able to buy that cake.
So do ALL religious beliefs get that special protection? Are all religious beliefs superior to any law that would prohibit them?
The right to the free exercise of your religion is guaranteed by the 1st Amendment. If laws are enacted that prohibit that free exercise, then I would expect that the person of faith would argue that his/her religious rights are protected by the 1st Amendment and thus are superior. I don't profess to know the breadth of religious tenets, but my opinion is that the Constitutional right to religious freedom was intended to err on the side of religious freedom over governmental involvement.
If you are asking if human sacrifice is protected under the 1st Amendment, I would argue that Thou Shalt Not Murder - also a religious precept that is foundational in Judaism and Christianity, at least codified by their "sacred texts" would "trump" and religious practice of human sacrifice in the US.
The right to the free exercise of your religion is guaranteed by the 1st Amendment. If laws are enacted that prohibit that free exercise, then I would expect that the person of faith would argue that his/her religious rights are protected by the 1st Amendment and thus are superior. I don't profess to know the breadth of religious tenets, but my opinion is that the Constitutional right to religious freedom was intended to err on the side of religious freedom over governmental involvement.
If you are asking if human sacrifice is protected under the 1st Amendment, I would argue that Thou Shalt Not Murder - also a religious precept that is foundational in Judaism and Christianity, at least codified by their "sacred texts" would "trump" and religious practice of human sacrifice in the US.
Not everyone is Jewish or Christian.
Why should Jewish/Christian religious belief have any effect on other religious belief?
There is a religious belief that requires followers to consume pot. There are laws against smoking pot. These people do not get out of jail time because of their religious beliefs.
Yes they can refuse the gay couple a penis shaped cake if they do not OFFER penis shaped cakes for sle in their store.
Stop adding a condition that is not part of the question. My question to you is, can a baker who bakes all different shapes of cakes for weddings, refuse to bake a rainbow colored, penis shaped wedding cake for a gay customer. The ingredients for the requested cake is available to the baker, the design would be the creation of the baker, same as any other wedding cake requested by anyone else.
You previously stated that the gay customer could be refused service based on that request. You did not limit your answer to "if they didn't offer a penis cake."
You have always stated that if a florist sells flowers for weddings, then the florist cannot refuse to provide wedding flowers to gays. You never limited your statement by saying that the florist had the right to refuse the gay couple if they sought a flower that was not in stock.
Now you are arguing that discrimination against gays is acceptable when certain conditions are included (like the shape of a cake or an out of season flower).
So can a baker who sells wedding cakes refuse to provide services to a gay customer seeking a rainbow colored, penis shaped wedding cake or not?
Why are you having trouble with this concept?
If a baker is willing to make a design, then he can't discriminate to whom he will sell a cake with that design and to whom he won't. He can't sell a penis cake to Christians, but refuse to sell a penis cake to Jews. He can't sell a penis cake to heterosexuals, but not to homosexuals.
If the baker is unwilling to make a penis cake in general, then he don't have to make a penis cake for anyone, even if that's what a customer wants. Penis shaped cakes are not a product he offers.
Why should Jewish/Christian religious belief have any effect on other religious belief?
There is a religious belief that requires followers to consume pot. There are laws against smoking pot. These people do not get out of jail time because of their religious beliefs.
Because our nation and our laws are based on Judeo-Christian principles.
The 1993 Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 was exactly enacted for the reason you state.
If a baker is willing to make a design, then he can't discriminate to whom he will sell a cake with that design and to whom he won't. He can't sell a penis cake to Christians, but refuse to sell a penis cake to Jews. He can't sell a penis cake to heterosexuals, but not to homosexuals.
If the baker is unwilling to make a penis cake in general, then he don't have to make a penis cake for anyone, even if that's what a customer wants. Penis shaped cakes are not a product he offers.
That is not the issue. The issue is the baker will create wedding cakes for people. These customers are gay and want a wedding cake of a specific design. Can they be refused service of the baker to provide them a wedding cake? Just because the baker may not like the design the gay couple chose, is that a valid bases to deny service to the gay coupled?
Why is the baker's distaste, discomfort, whatever, in creating a penis cake a more valid reason to deny service than a constitutionally guaranteed right of the free exercise of religion?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
