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So I should be denied a civil marriage because your church might be looked at poorly for not allowing SSM in their church?
No one is making any Christian go against their religion, nothing is being "shoved down your throat? by allowing me to go to city hall and get a marriage license. You would not be forced to marry someone of the same sex. You would not be forced to attend a same sex wedding. You will not be forced to have a same sex wedding in your church. You will not be forced to like that some people have a same sex marriage. You will not be forced to do diddly. You can preach that it is a sin all you want, what you can not do is use your religious beliefs to force others to conform to what your religion believes.
My sincere apologies. I wasn't trying to say much about opposing this issue. I was just saying that people don't really understand the perspective of religious people here who may oppose it, and that's a problem. There are well-meaning people on both sides of this issue, but because public opinion is such that will never be explored. Assume that around here, we're constantly poisoned with "religious" ideals that reinforce stereotypes and encourage discrimination. I hate it as much as anyone else, but I genuinely don't know what to do about it. I can look at the racist redneck who believes that interracial marriage is sin and can smile and roll my eyes when he quotes obviously misinterpreted scripture to "justify" his point, but, for the most part, I can't see that people are perhaps making the same mistake with this issue, because the race war was way before my time. Most of the churches moved on to other issues and found other ways to interpret scripture away from racially prejudiced ideals. This, however, is a fresh issue, and the churches haven't moved on.
My sincere apologies. I wasn't trying to say much about opposing this issue. I was just saying that people don't really understand the perspective of religious people here who may oppose it, and that's a problem. There are well-meaning people on both sides of this issue, but because public opinion is such that will never be explored. Assume that around here, we're constantly poisoned with "religious" ideals that reinforce stereotypes and encourage discrimination. I hate it as much as anyone else, but I genuinely don't know what to do about it. I can look at the racist redneck who believes that interracial marriage is sin and can smile and roll my eyes when he quotes obviously misinterpreted scripture to "justify" his point, but, for the most part, I can't see that people are perhaps making the same mistake with this issue, because the race war was way before my time. Most of the churches moved on to other issues and found other ways to interpret scripture away from racially prejudiced ideals. This, however, is a fresh issue, and the churches haven't moved on.
Again, this is a constitutional issue. Churches can do or think as they please. They can change with the times, as they have done on just about every other topic, or they can stay in the dark ages. Either way is no skin off on my nose as I am not religious. The problem comes when they try to force their religious beliefs into laws that everyone else has to live by. If your religion believes that same sex marriage is a sin, then don't marry someone of the same sex. Some religions believe that eating pork is taboo, yet they simply don't eat pork they don't try to get it banned for everyone else.
Alabama is terrible, really. The government is corrupt; the people are oppressed, and the churches and politicians run everything. I hate this place. We have people who are still prejudiced against other races, prejudiced against women, and prejudiced against people who don't believe like they do. I can't even make many friends here, and I'm a religious person too. To add insult to injury, I'm actually required to put up with these people, because "their prejudices are not morally wrong." I hate it. I hate having to ignore it. I want to tell the people who hate Black people to just stop talking. I want to tell the people who hate women to go jump in the river, and I want to invite all of the people who judge people who don't believe like they do to one another's place of worship for pulled pork and lamb sandwiches.
Alabama is terrible, really. The government is corrupt; the people are oppressed, and the churches and politicians run everything. I hate this place. We have people who are still prejudiced against other races, prejudiced against women, and prejudiced against people who don't believe like they do. I can't even make many friends here, and I'm a religious person too. To add insult to injury, I'm actually required to put up with these people, because "their prejudices are not morally wrong." I hate it. I hate having to ignore it.
To those who say that the state should not interfere with marriage and it is a matter of individual freedom, I invite them to think about divorce. Doesn't the State interfere with that process ? Or are the spouses left to handle their business themselves ? The State is involved in your divorce just like it is involved in your marriage, it has that power to regulate how things are going to be happening and you have very little say. Marriage is a completely separate issue from individual freedom, because individual rights are just that, individual. If you want to establish a legal bond with somebody it is not individual anymore, it is social and the State does have the absolute right to regulate the way social interaction happens. You cannot solicit the services of a prostitute despite the fact that you are two consenting adults, this will land you in jail and none of your civil rights will be violated.
The basis upon which the law is founded in this country is, like it or not, judeo-christian morals. These morals dictate that marriage is a union between a man and a woman. This has nothing to do with being a theocracy, judeo-christian morals are the cornerstone of western civilization and the historic guideline for western laws and this is coming from a non-christian.
When our laws depart more and more from the set of morals which allowed our society to exist in the first place, it is not progress, it is going backwards. I understand most of the LGBT people have a hatred for all things conservative because they are at odds with society as a whole. However agreeing to spread their fallacies in the name of "tolerance" will only redefine what we are as a nation, what we are as humans. Every human being is sexual in nature, artificially redefining the ways in which this sexuality is expressed goes against the interest of humanity which is to reproduce and perpetuate our species, and prevents individuals from living a balanced life with a person of the opposite gender.
Since families are the cornerstone of society, the social, psychological and societal consequences of homosexuality are immense and obvious.
This change (homosexual marriage) is yet another step in the transformation of traditional societies and this change is not for the best. When a different set of values are replacing the traditional ones, the traditional country you knew does not exist anymore, it is being deconstructed one step at a time.
I must disagree with the idea that the change going on is not for the best. There is nothing good with stamping labels as 'abnormal' and thus 'unvalued' and 'unwelcome' on the people who don't fit the 'normal' mode. People who are gay are born that way. It is NATURAL for them, just as for a hetrosexual person attraction to the opposite sex is natural. Recognizing that each of us is unique and different, with a different mix of characteristics, and we have a full right to be who we are so long as we do not HARM others. That you like the opposite sex and this other person is attracted to the same does not harm you. Your insistance that their needs are somehow wrong does do harm if it causes society to deny them their due rights as a human being.
Our society has a lot of work to do, and we begin with the visible differences like race and the behavioral ones like sexual orientation. But EVERY person has a value and even if they see life as different than you they may be that way unless it leads to harm to others. We get past these things we need to start looking at each of us as human beings with the right to be as we are made and the knowlege that we do not have to be made the same as everyone else and society is indeed *enriched* by the differences.
Well, I understand what you are saying, but honestly, to get anything done in this place, unless I'm wrong and I don't think I am, you have to go through the entities they trust; their churches, traditions, and communities. That's the way things are. It makes sense to them. That's why Alabama will have to be dragged kicking, clawing, and screaming, into the future on certain issues. The thing that really confuses me, though, is how groups that openly promote hatred manage to go through the churches and others can't. We know that Christianity is not and never has been a religion of hatred, yet many throughout the ages have used twisted doctrines to control people and cause them to ignore, or even commit, crimes, out of fear. I'm afraid we get fooled by the same game every time a new issue arises. I think it's one of the reasons I don't really like this place. I'm afraid too many of our preachers may not know how to interpret scripture away from those views, either. You would be wrong if you think hearing the same messages over and over again doesn't affect most of the people here, even the well-meaning ones.
The anti-religious groups say that our churches and traditions are the problem. I think abuse of these institutions is our problem. I think most people living here might agree with me if they knew the issue, but all they know on the moral front, usually, is what they hear preached. That tells me there aren't many people even considering the churches to help spread useful information and instigate new movements, but it's an avenue that has been used throughout history with great success.
Maybe it runs those who aren't religious zelots out as soon as they can leave. My dad was born and raised there. He left the farm for the navy at sixteen. In all the years after (he died some twenty years ago) he only visited a few times. He had trouble not getting into arguments and left.
He left early once when his brother said they didn't deal with their nephews since they had BEER in their refrig and it wasn't christan to drink.
The thing is, Alabama will be dragged into the future anyway even if they hate it. I only wish it had a while before because then I would have known that side of the family more.
Since I moved to OK from California for other reasons, I've ignored politics, but today even in the southern half of the nation you can't draw a curtain and say we won't let any of the others in.
Maybe it runs those who aren't religious zelots out as soon as they can leave. My dad was born and raised there. He left the farm for the navy at sixteen. In all the years after (he died some twenty years ago) he only visited a few times. He had trouble not getting into arguments and left.
He left early once when his brother said they didn't deal with their nephews since they had BEER in their refrig and it wasn't christan to drink.
The thing is, Alabama will be dragged into the future anyway even if they hate it. I only wish it had a while before because then I would have known that side of the family more.
Since I moved to OK from California for other reasons, I've ignored politics, but today even in the southern half of the nation you can't draw a curtain and say we won't let any of the others in.
I'm tired. I really feel like I need to move. Here moderate Christians can easily be dragged into "wars" over "religious issues" that can range from people getting mad that a woman wore pants to concern over someone selling liquor on the corner. I really wish we weren't so busy arguing over scruples. I would really like to be part of a religious organization that people take seriously, at least. Most of my views are in line with the rest of the nation. I would like to have a pastor who is, too. Good luck to me if I expect to find that around here, though.
From what I see, Alabama is only good for you if you need to find a church that will help you stay several years in the past. If you are looking for that, then by all means move here.
Classic way to say I don't have answers or the ability to conduct a reasoned discussion.
I find it funny how you make assumptions on a subject (religion) I never even brought into the discussion.
I'm tired. I really would rather make friends and argue for causes that most people agree are just. I think it is sad that no one really cares about the religious person's point of view, but trying to explain it one more time isn't going to change anything. Really, I would be happy to see things level out a little. When the preacher only has the choir to preach to, he can get as picky as he wants, but when he's got the harlots and drug dealers in his congregation, he's usually a lot more relaxed. Maybe a radical change in our politics and demographic would do us some good.
Alabama is terrible, really. I want to tell the people who hate women to go jump in the river, and I want to invite all of the people who judge people who don't believe like they do to one another's place of worship for pulled pork and lamb sandwiches.
you know some people don't like pork
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I'm afraid we get fooled by the same game every time a new issue arises. I think it's one of the reasons I don't really like this place. I'm afraid too many of our preachers may not know how to interpret scripture away from those views, either. You would be wrong if you think hearing the same messages over and over again doesn't affect most of the people here, even the well-meaning ones. 
