If Taxes Are Theft, How Will the World run? (Representatives, unemployment, wages)

[T0103E]

Originally Posted by bUU

Yes it has. It was self-ratifying. Try tying your claims back to universal principles instead of basing them on your own personal preferences.

Yes you have. It is a logical fallacy. You are making the positive claim. Prove it and stop complaining that you cannot.

Non-aggression principle and respect for property rights - universal principles

Taxation is theft because money is being forcibly taken from individuals with or without their consent.

You own yourself and the effects of your actions - ownership is having the exclusive right to something. You have exclusive rights to your body, correct? You also own the effects of your actions...you own the post you just wrote, you own something that you build, etc. Nobody has the right to claim those things as their own. Do you disagree?

[Seabass Inna Bun]

Originally Posted by petch751

LOL, is it fair that the person making 125K worked to get an education and go up the ladder have to pay more because he put forth more effort. Or do we just reward people who are too lazy to better themselves?

Who said life was fair? And why are you talking about reward and punishment? The market allegedly rewards hard work and talent and allegedly punishes laziness, not the government. People are taxed because it's necessary, and those that have more are taxed more. Government is not your mommy, it's job is not to give you a gold star for making money like Teacher does when you finally get 2+2 right.

[petch751]

Originally Posted by Seabass Inna Bun

Who said life was fair? And why are you talking about reward and punishment? The market allegedly rewards hard work and talent and allegedly punishes laziness, not the government. People are taxed because it's necessary, and those that have more are taxed more. Government is not your mommy, it's job is not to give you a gold star for making money like Teacher does when you finally get 2+2 right.

What's your fixation with "mommy".

[bUU]

Originally Posted by T0103E

Non-aggression principle

Right wing claptrap - a self-ratifying derivation of the actual universal principle, self-ownership. Self-ownership is the right to have bodily integrity - the owning of one's physical BODY. It is the principle on which the right to privacy is based, but again, its scope is limited to one's physical BODY. You'll see me refer to this principle in my comments about how one has the inviolable right to live in accordance with their own beliefs and values within their own skin. There are other rights that grant people shared dominion over their family, and still other rights that grant people a say in larger groups, specifically in accordance with the larger groups rules to that effect.

Calling something a universal principle doesn't make it one. Subscribing to Ayn Rand's fantasies don't make those fantasies actual.

Originally Posted by T0103E

and respect for property rights

The universal principal is different from what you claim it is. The principle is codified neatly as:

(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

So your claim fails on two accounts. First: Taxation is not arbitrary - it is the result of deliberate action and due process of law - and therefore the principle doesn't apply for the reason outlined above. Second: The tax portion isn't your legitimate property, any more than your rent is your legitimate property once you incur the debt associated with occupying an apartment. Your property is the net income you earn, not the gross income.

The most compelling evidence of this is the acknowledgement by all but the most self-ratifying partisans that some measure of contribution to society by citizens is necessary, typically for national defense and such. Of course, that acknowledgement also tidily debunks their contention about any other aspect of contribution to society.

Originally Posted by T0103E

Taxation is theft because money is being forcibly taken from individuals with or without their consent.

Another self-deception. Taxation is constitutional and legal and citizenship implies consent to live in accordance with the law.

[monkeywrenching]

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Define fair. Is it fair that a person who makes say 12.5K pay 17% of their income as well as costs that they may not be able to shake to someone who makes 125K and mitigates cost?

I define fair as a 15% sales tax and no income taxes. that way everyone is hit the same.

[bUU]

Originally Posted by monkeywrenching

I define fair as a 15% sales tax and no income taxes. that way everyone is hit the same.

Let's exempt food currently SNAP-eligible, exempt shelter and some home repair services, exempt electricity (up to a certain limit per month per account, indexed to the local area), exempt public transportation, exempt education, exempt healthcare, exempt clothing (up to a certain limit per article, indexed to the local area and the article), and increase the percentage to leave the system revenue neutral, and we have may a deal.

[T0103E]

Originally Posted by bUU

Right wing claptrap - a self-ratifying derivation of the actual universal principle, self-ownership. Self-ownership is the right to have bodily integrity - the owning of one's physical BODY. It is the principle on which the right to privacy is based, but again, its scope is limited to one's physical BODY. You'll see me refer to this principle in my comments about how one has the inviolable right to live in accordance with their own beliefs and values within their own skin. There are other rights that grant people shared dominion over their family, and still other rights that grant people a say in larger groups, specifically in accordance with the larger groups rules to that effect.

Calling something a universal principle doesn't make it one. Subscribing to Ayn Rand's fantasies don't make those fantasies actual.

The universal principal is different from what you claim it is. The principle is codified neatly as:

(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

So your claim fails on two accounts. First: Taxation is not arbitrary - it is the result of deliberate action and due process of law - and therefore the principle doesn't apply for the reason outlined above. Second: The tax portion isn't your legitimate property, any more than your rent is your legitimate property once you incur the debt associated with occupying an apartment. Your property is the net income you earn, not the gross income.

The most compelling evidence of this is the acknowledgement by all but the most self-ratifying partisans that some measure of contribution to society by citizens is necessary, typically for national defense and such. Of course, that acknowledgement also tidily debunks their contention about any other aspect of contribution to society.

Another self-deception. Taxation is constitutional and legal and citizenship implies consent to live in accordance with the law.

I appreciate the reply. There's a lot I want to address here, so I'll do that when I get a chance.

[bUU]

You're welcome. I don't give everyone on the right wing the respect of reading all their postings, much less responding to them in as much detail as I did in this case, so please do know that my doing so is a sign of at least some level of respect.

Regardless, I am hoping you do reply without evasion and without relying on self-ratification. I'll look forward to that.

[InformedConsent]

Originally Posted by workingclasshero

tax EVERYONE at the same rate...and if the FEDERAL government cant run on 10% (15% at the most) of everyones income.......then there is a spending problem

Exactly.

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I've read this philosophy from different libertarians who talk about taxes being theft and that they should be illegal because of that. But what I don't understand is why do people want that? Don't people realize what taxes pay for?

Like so many......you fail, because you employ the Straw Man Fallacy and Misrepresent the position held by Libertarians and Conservatives regarding Taxes As Theft, so I will set the record straight.

Taxes are Theft under the following conditions:

1. Fraud
2. Income Redistribution Scheme
3. Not Constitutionally Mandated

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Schools,.....

Straw Man -- public education is a matter of Opportunity Costs....try again.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

...we forget that on the local level schools get their budgets from the state government.

Wrong, Komrade, you live in a federal republic. Each of the 50 States & Commonwealths have their own funding formulas.

Yes, that's right......funding methods are diverse.....and diversity is good.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

What do we do, just have private schools that you have to pay an arm and a leg for? We already have that, it's called college and look at the student loan bubble at about 20K per student shackling them in a way that many cannot move.

Misrepresentation
If the misrepresentation occurs on purpose, then it is an example of lying.

Guaranteed Student Loans are an option, not a requirement.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Roads, roads are funded by the gas tax.

Straw Man -- roads are a matter of Opportunity Costs....try again.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Public Transportation, similar to roads public transit such as buses, trains, subways and lightrail systems can only run on fare so much, expansion of lines rely on money. Who pays for that?

Straw Man
Misrepresentation
Suppressed Evidence
Intentionally failing to use information suspected of being relevant and significant is committing the fallacy of suppressed evidence. This fallacy usually occurs when the information counts against one’s own conclusion.

The US had a viable privately owned public mass transits system everywhere until General Motors embarked on a plan to purchase all privately owned mass transit, run it into the ground to devalue its assets to lower GM's tax liability, while simultaneously crow-barring Americans into buying cars as their mass transit service disappeared.

That is not speculation or fantasy or conspiracy theory.

That is reality....and you can watch that reality in a documentary film in which the GM vice-president in charge of this heinous plan and his minions confess on celluloid to America the sins and crimes they committed against Americans.

And the Bush and Obama bail out GM.....GM outlived its usefulness decades ago.

Government mass transit is inefficient, costly and often not effective.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Defense, if there is no taxes on the federal level who will cover equipment for a war brought upon us by an attack?

Defense is expressly authorized in the Constitution.

Now, let's talk about the taxes you intentionally omitted in your Straw Man Fantasy.

The total amount spent on these 80 plus federal welfare programs amounts to roughly $1.03 trillion.
Importantly, these figures solely refer to means tested welfare benefits. They exclude entitlement programs to which people contribute (e.g., Social Security and Medicare).

[emphasis mine]

A list of all 83 federal welfare programs:


 Family Planning Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Consolidated Health Centers Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Transitional Cash and Medical Services for Refugees Not Constitutionally Mandated
 State Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP) Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Voluntary Medicare Prescription Drug Benefit—Low-Income SubsidyNot Constitutionally Mandated
 Medicaid Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Ryan White HIV/AIDS Program Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Breast/Cervical Cancer Early Detection Fraud/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Maternal and Child Health Block Grant Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Indian Health Service
 Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) (cash aid) Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Supplemental Security Income Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Additional Child Tax Credit Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Earned Income Tax Credit Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 School Breakfast Program Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 National School Lunch Program Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants and Children (WIC) Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Child and Adult Care Food Program Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Summer Food Service Program Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Commodity Supplemental Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Food Program Nutrition Assistance for Puerto Rico Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 The Emergency Food Assistance Program (TEFAP) Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Nutrition Program for the Elderly Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Indian Education
 Adult Basic Education Grants to State Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Federal Supplemental Educational Opportunity Grant Fraud/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Education for the Disadvantaged—Grants to Local Educational Agencies (Title I-A) Fraud/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Title I Migrant Education Program Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Higher Education—Institutional Aid and Developing Institutions Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Federal Work-Study Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Federal TRIO Programs Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Federal Pell Grants Fraud/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Education for Homeless Children and Youth Fraud/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 21st Century Community Learning Centers Fraud/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Gaining Early Awareness and Readiness for Undergraduate Programs (GEAR-UP) Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Reading First and Early Reading First Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Rural Education Achievement Program Fraud/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Mathematics and Science Partnerships Fraud/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Improving Teacher Quality State Grants Fraud/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Academic Competitiveness and Smart Grant Program Fraud/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Single-Family Rural Housing Loans Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Rural Rental Assistance Program Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Water and Waste Disposal for Rural Communities Fraud/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Public Works and Economic Development Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Supportive Housing for the Elderly Fraud/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Supportive Housing for Persons with Disabilities Fraud/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Section 8 Project-Based Rental Assistance Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Community Development Block Grants Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Homeless Assistance Grants Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Home Investment Partnerships Program (HOME) Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Housing Opportunities for Persons with AIDS (HOPWA) Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Public Housing Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Indian Housing Block Grants
 Section 8 Housing Choice Vouchers Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Neighborhood Stabilization Program-1 Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Grants to States for Low-Income Housing in Lieu of Low-Income Housing Credit Allocations Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Tax Credit Assistance Program Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Indian Human Services
 Older Americans Act Grants for Supportive Services and SeniorCenters Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Older Americans Act Family Caregiver Program Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) (social services) Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Child Support Enforcement Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Community Services Block Grant Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Child Care and Development Fund Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Head Start HHS Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Developmental Disabilities Support and Advocacy Grants Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Foster Care Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Adoption Assistance Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Social Services Block Grant Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Chafee Foster Care Independence Program Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Emergency Food and Shelter Program Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Legal Services Corporation
 Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) (employment and training component) Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Community Service Employment for Older Americans Fraud/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Workforce Investment Act (WIA) Adult Activities Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Workforce Investment Act (WIA) Youth Activities Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Social Services and Targeted Assistance for Refugees
 Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) (employment and training) Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Foster Grandparents Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Job Corps Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Weatherization Assistance Program Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated
 Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program Fraud/Income Redistribution Scheme/Not Constitutionally Mandated


Do you realize that's what your taxes are paying for?

Mircea