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Irregardless of what anybody say's, this nation is a secular nation. Discrimination is illegal for any reason and under all circumstances. Religion is not a mitigating factor in discrimination.
If I belong to the "Church of the Mighty *****", I cannot use my religion as an excuse not to give/sell water to anyone affiliated with the Republican party. If I pass a law allowing me to refuse service based on my religious beliefs, then I am using religion as a basis for law in this country. It's no different than ISIS instituting Sharia law as the law of the land.
I repeat, we are a secular nation, not founded on any one religion.
Discrimination isn't illegal for any reason and under all circumstances. I discriminate all the time whenever I choose one thing over another. In this case specifically, the debate is whether or not a person should be forced to serve another. We're in agreement that there should be no laws forcing people to comply with any religious rules.
Washington (CNN)Indiana Gov. Mike Pence is set to sign into law a measure that allows businesses to turn away gay and lesbian customers in the name of "religious freedom."
The move comes as Pence considers a bid for the 2016 Republican presidential nomination -- and just a year after Pence and socially conservative lawmakers lost their first policy battle against gay Hoosiers. In 2014 they had sought to amend Indiana's constitution to ban same-sex marriages -- but were beaten back by a highly-organized coalition of Democrats, traditionally right-leaning business organizations and fiscally focused supporters of Pence's predecessor, former GOP Gov. Mitch Daniels.
You can already turn away gay, straight, sideways, diagonal and upside down people if you want. All this bill does is force the government to use a higher standard of burden and need before forcing a business to serve someone the owners of the business have a religious objection to.
In all 50 states, right now, businesses are enjoying their right to refuse service to people for any number of reason. These RFRA laws do not add a level of discrimination, they simply make the government have a tougher time forcing people to do things against their will. They don't make it impossible, they don't legalize discrimination, they don't establish a state religion. ALL THEY DO IS MAKE IT SLIGHTLY HARDER FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO FORCE PEOPLE TO ACT CONTRARY TO AND THUS VIOLATE THEIR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM.
Not sure why this is so hard to understand. The federal government and the government of all 31 states that have some kind of law/amendment/process like the RFRA can still force religious business owners to participate in gay weddings. These laws simply require the government to prove that forcing the private citizen to act contrary to their religious belief is a compelling government interest, and that the use of force and making them do the government's bidding is indeed the least restrictive/intrusive way to serve that compelling interest. If they can prove both, then they can still tell private citizens to pound sand and serve whoever sued to be served.
I'm just focusing on where that right came from in the first place, regardless of what the law says. If nobody individually has the right to force a business owner to do something, I don't see how they can say "we give that right to lawmakers and law enforcement" because you can't delegate a right that you never had to begin with.
It's not a right, it's a power. I don't have the power (never mind the right) to:
conscript your child into the armed forces;
collect income, sales, use, excise and other taxes from you; or
punish (including killing) you for breaking a law,
just among thousands of other powers government has, but those powers are real, constitutional, and approved of by the vast majority of Americans. The law, and the government behind it, forces people to do things it doesn't want to do every hour of every day. The people's assignment of powers to the government has nothing to do with the powers they had or have individually.
You can already turn away gay, straight, sideways, diagonal and upside down people if you want. All this bill does is force the government to use a higher standard of burden and need before forcing a business to serve someone the owners of the business have a religious objection to.
In all 50 states, right now, businesses are enjoying their right to refuse service to people for any number of reason. These RFRA laws do not add a level of discrimination, they simply make the government have a tougher time forcing people to do things against their will. They don't make it impossible, they don't legalize discrimination, they don't establish a state religion. ALL THEY DO IS MAKE IT SLIGHTLY HARDER FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO FORCE PEOPLE TO ACT CONTRARY TO AND THUS VIOLATE THEIR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM.
Not sure why this is so hard to understand. The federal government and the government of all 31 states that have some kind of law/amendment/process like the RFRA can still force religious business owners to participate in gay weddings. These laws simply require the government to prove that forcing the private citizen to act contrary to their religious belief is a compelling government interest, and that the use of force and making them do the government's bidding is indeed the least restrictive/intrusive way to serve that compelling interest. If they can prove both, then they can still tell private citizens to pound sand and serve whoever sued to be served.
The larger question is how refusing to do business with gay people is an expression of religious freedom. It sure looks to me, and obviously to millions more of my fellow Americans, as pure and simple discriminatory bigotry against a group of people based on who they are. And it looks to us like there's no more justification for it than there was for "religious-based" racial discrimination.
If you own a tattoo shop and are related to someone who had family lost to the holicost, should you have right to refuse to tattoo a swastika? This is a result of the baker losing her business because gay lobby is the in lobby with this federal government. Replace gay with any other group in future administrations and those against this law now might be for it later. This is not a racist law, it is just some protection for business owners. You go into business to make money so to turn down business is a big thing. It must be a major issue to turn down money.
I don't get the moonbat's outrage since Clinton put this into play in the early 90's. Maybe they should do some research before they jump on the bus. The hypocrisy is unbelievable.
You're not being punished. It's like saying that you're punishing someone of the opposite sex by not dating them.
I think most rational people know it's not the same thing.
When there are, ostensibly, business owners who have petitioned the courts alleging they're being 'substantially burdened' in their efforts to freely exercise their religion by providing services to people.
I suspect that Governor Pence will be asking the state Attorney General for an opinion regarding whether the new law would pass Constitutional muster. I also suspect that said Governor will include a private side-note to his formal request, such as "It doesn't, get us out of this difficulty". Said Attorney General will then issue his or her opinion (probably pretty quickly).
Of course, I have no idea whom the Attorney General for Indiana is. He (or she) may well be of the opinion that said law is Constitutional, and that his or her office will defend the law in Court (especially if said AG has his or her sights set on the governor's office, and thinks said law is popular with the majority of Hoosiers).
Yup, that sounds about right too, thanks & respect for your reply, I appreciate.
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