Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This seems to be an issue of reciprocal treaty agreements between the member countries honouring all but that part of the process that involves individual hardship.
The actual requirement of the individual signing a document stating he relinquishes all rights to any inheritance and therefore also abrogates any responsibility for debts incurred should be as easy as sitting in a lawyers or notary public's office to accomplish. German law and procedures notwithstanding; what is it they are attempting to achieve that will actually bear fruit?
Some German law probably states that in the case of any inheritance being transferred; prior to said transference of assets, any debts/liens incurred left outstanding must be satisfied. The option therefore is to attach the estate and all it's inheritors.
Surely some German bean counter is able to assess the estate as being in deficit so there is nothing to attach and some other agent should be equally adept at ascertaining the issue of this gentleman signing a quit claim to said estate being of little to no value in recovery of debt import.
Once some intelligent logic is applied in terms of to what extent the German debt holders are going to benefit from this bureaucratic exercise, I'm sure sanity will prevail, but until that happens, it remains incumbent upon this elderly gentleman to find an agent with recognized authority to make it very difficult for the courts involved to ignore the cost-versus-reward of this stupidly unproductive and unduly punitive exercise. .
The problem is that Germany is trying to recover money it has paid out and its law permits it to go after the nearest living relative to do that.
It happens here as well. About a month after my brother-in-law passed away, the VA went into his wife's bank account and took out money it felt it was owed (due to a payment being made before they could process his death). They didn't ask, they didn't inquire as to whether it might cause his widow any hardship and the law allows them to do that.
When my mother passed away in the UK, the UK pensions people wrote to us to recover pension money that had been paid out after her death.
Germany is not being unduly punitive. They are simply applying their law.
By US law all retirement income (pensions, IRAs, 401Ks) are protected and no liens can be put on these type of assets or income derived from them. The only exception is debt owed to the US gov't (like taxes). They (Germany) can't even take his house (if he has one).
If Germany gets pushy about it, let the German courts and the US courts fight it out amongst themselves.
He should contact his senator or representative now to end this mess.
It wouldn't be "Germany" coming after him it would be a German debtor in US courts. Unless he inherited assets of the deceased I doubt they would succeed in court or even press the claim. If he accepted assets then he's in a weak position to dispute the debts.
I suspect this is a common problem. Just as lawyers, accountants, etc. cannot practice in other countries or even states without being duly licensed by the country or state. I wonder if the US would recognize a German notary's signature on a US legal document?
As ever, when a citizen runs into the 'system', it is always the citizen who is put at a disadvantage. In this case, the disadvantage is exacerbated by the citizen being elderly and disabled.
But Germany doesn't care. Under German law, this US citizen is liable for inherited debts unless he renounces - also under German law - the inheritance. That is their system and they are not going to change it for one individual. And the fact that he is a US citizen and not a German one does not change his legal liability under German law.
Of course, if there were assets in the estate rather than debts, he would also stand to inherit those assets. So the 'system' isn't entirely unfair.
Generally, the only way to introduce flexibility into the 'system' is to bring political pressure. So contacting your Congressman/woman or Senator is absolutely the right way to go.
Here is a kicker: It is up to the heir to determine what the inheritance is. In other words, it is up to the individual to determine whether the deceased has more debt than assets. Hard to do from another country!
Therefore, acceptance of the inheritance can literally be a crap shoot!
I would tell the krauts to go pound sand. Both my parents are from there and there is no way I would pay off the debt of relative. Their debt, their problem. And if they're dead, it's not my problem.
Not to scare you but Germany will follow the line of descent of survivors. In other words, if an aunt or uncle dies there and their children deny the inheritance/debt (whichever), the German officials then move on to the next in line which would be your parents and then you.
Here is a kicker: It is up to the heir to determine what the inheritance is. In other words, it is up to the individual to determine whether the deceased has more debt than assets. Hard to do from another country!
Therefore, acceptance of the inheritance can literally be a crap shoot!
Absolutely agree. And I speak as someone who is just wrapping up an estate (that of my mother) in another country (the UK). I was lucky in that there were assets and we had an outstanding attorney handling matters (someone I was at High School with 40 years ago and who is now the managing partner of the firm. Sheer luck).
The problem is that Germany is trying to recover money it has paid out and its law permits it to go after the nearest living relative to do that.
It happens here as well. About a month after my brother-in-law passed away, the VA went into his wife's bank account and took out money it felt it was owed (due to a payment being made before they could process his death). They didn't ask, they didn't inquire as to whether it might cause his widow any hardship and the law allows them to do that.
When my mother passed away in the UK, the UK pensions people wrote to us to recover pension money that had been paid out after her death.
Germany is not being unduly punitive. They are simply applying their law.
The debt, of which this thread is about, was from nursing home fees in Germany. If US citizens have to pay for nursing home care in other countries......we may as well have socialized medicine!
Here is a kicker: It is up to the heir to determine what the inheritance is. In other words, it is up to the individual to determine whether the deceased has more debt than assets. Hard to do from another country!
Therefore, acceptance of the inheritance can literally be a crap shoot!
The deceased had a couple bank accounts. The elderly gentleman called the German bank to ask what was in the accounts and the bank said they could not give out that information.
The debt, of which this thread is about, was from nursing home fees in Germany. If US citizens have to pay for nursing home care in other countries......we may as well have socialized medicine!
If those fees were paid by the German Government (e.g. social services) then they have an obligation to attempt to recover taxpayer's money as permitted by German law. The nationality of the next of kin is irrelevant to the process.
If it is a private entity trying to recover that money then they will lodge a claim in a German court and will then apply to a US court to enforce the German judgement. Again, nationality is irrelevant.
Absolutely agree. And I speak as someone who is just wrapping up an estate (that of my mother) in another country (the UK). I was lucky in that there were assets and we had an outstanding attorney handling matters (someone I was at High School with 40 years ago and who is not the managing partner of the firm. Sheer luck).
Debt is a civil matter. I don't think overseas debts are enforceable in US Courts unless the government wanted to pursue a civil suit - an unlikely occurance. US citizens leave debts in the Middle East and Asia all the time. I have never heard of them being enforced here in the US.
Of course if one travels to the EU then you could potentially be tagged or held for them.
The deceased had a couple bank accounts. The elderly gentleman called the German bank to ask what was in the accounts and the bank said they could not give out that information.
This elderly gentleman either needs a lawyer in Germany or he needs to make the trip to the German consulate to renounce the inheritance.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
