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This isn't that hard people. Science cannot establish when life begins, if your religion establishes it, that's great, but that's only your religion. We live in a country where I don't have to believe any other persons religion.
Unless you can provide facts, not opinions, you just have to agree to disagree.
Either abortion is legal for all, or is not. In all cases, the outcome is the same.
The fact that it's ok to allow it for some women and not others, depending on how they got pregnant - is to make a moral judgment on the pregnant woman that has nothing at all to do with the supposed rights of the fetus.
It's inconsistent.
I'm probably a bit inconsistent as well by saying that I do think abortion is morally wrong in some circumstances but not others. But what's truly the most wrong to me at least is to make a rape victim continue with her pregnancy when she already had choice taken away once - the rape. It's wrong to make a mother carry and deliver a baby that is so severely handicapped he or she either won't survive or will live a truly miserable, dare I say pointless life.
Despite my feelings though on it being morally wrong in certain scenarios, I still think abortion needs to be legal. Even in the instances I find morally wrong, if abortion is illegal and those babies are born, we now have more babies in the world born to potentially poor mothers or mothers who cannot take care of the child, or simply don't want to be mothers. It's balancing multiple not exactly ideal scenarios and picking which seems to be the best.
But nothing changes the fact that despite one's own personal opinions on it, it is quite simply no one's business what another woman does. What does being pro-life accomplish? Having personal opinions that one has injected into another? I don't like abortion, and I'm happy YOU can't have one or I don't want YOU to have one. That's wrong, too, I think. To want to take away a right and a choice of another because one personally disagrees, with what is a very personal circumstance, is wrong IMO. To still have that right despite the fact that some don't agree is harmless, because like I said - someone having an abortion doesn't affect me. What may actually affect me more is pouring more money into welfare for those women who have their babies but can't afford them. THAT probably has a greater detrimental effect on society than abortions.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
Now see - this is an honest response and you're someone I feel I could have a rational discussion with. Thanks for your tone and for your honesty.
Do you think there is a middle ground where we could meet? Perhaps legalizing abortions for a variety of reasons (rape, incest, danger to the life of the mother, malformed fetus, that sort of thing)?
I'm not opposed to ALL abortion and I think that I am joined by many people who are pro life in this regard.
The thing is, and this is what's so heartbreaking to so many people who are pro life, when one believes that human life begins at conception, then every aborted fetus is a human life destroyed. Now - as a society, is this destruction sometimes necessary for the wellbeing of others? Sadly - yes. Should it ever be treated casually or should any government - protected (and sometimes sponsored) death be something we just ignore or pretend isn't happening?
See, I am consistent. I believe that the death penalty is so open to abuse and discrimination that I don't feel comfortable allowing our government (as it is at present) administering it. Same with wars - sometimes wars are unfortunately necessary but I doubt they're as necessary as governments make them out to be. Same with abortion - since I do consider every aborted fetus to be a person who is murdered, I do expect more protection to be offered these most vulnerable US citizens - not LESS.
I'm being honest and trying to honestly get this point across to people - there has been absolutely zero proof offered on this forum or by science, that a human fetus is not fully human. In fact the law seems to be so capricious - the fetus IS a person if the parent(s) want it to be, and it isn't if the parent(s) don't want it to be. Cause a miscarriage? You can be charged with manslaughter. Your unborn fetus has inheritance rights. A mother can be charged with child abuse by taking drugs before delivery. And yet, just change the desires of the parents, and these same babies can be aborted and their bodies thrown into an incinerator with the rest of the trash.
I believe that we can reach a good middle ground and I for one would never advocate for all abortions to be illegal. Not ever. I find that idea to be abhorrent as well.
Sure laws restricting abortions to some certain conditions would be abused but it would be a start. The other alternative is simply no controls whatsoever, resulting in hundreds of thousands of innocent lives being thrown away, most NOT due to rape, incest, danger to the mother, etc.
It's horrific. It's a holocaust and it's sanctioned by our government. That's the honest opinion of many pro life proponents. Our position doesn't stem from hate. It doesn't stem from restricting the rights of women, or wanting women to be mistreated or punished. It stems directly from our sincere belief that human life begins at conception. So can you imagine our ongoing horror at this situation?
I want people to quit demonizing the other side. It doesn't help anything or anyone.
This is so disingenuous.
Basically, you are pro life when it's the woman's "fault", and pro choice when it isn't.
Studies also show that conservatives give to their churches, the schools their children attend, the symphony, the ballet... organizations that they receive direct benefit from.
Less than 20% of church donations go to charitable works. The rest goes to pastor and staff salaries, buildings, church activities, etc. The donations for charitable works are often to their own members.
The great majority of funding for Catholic Social Services, Lutheran Social Services, etc. is government funding, not charitable giving from church members.
The Salvation Army is a notable exception. Samaritan's Purse I believe also fits in this category.
I'm pro-choice with abortion, want to get that at the top of this post.
Studies show that the wealthy donate more to the arts, etc and the less well off, including some of the poor who can barely afford it, donate more to social service groups.
No, you are inconsistent. The aborted fetuses of rape victims go into the incinerator too. If you believe fetuses are "fully human" then those fetuses are too.
If you believe embryos are fully human, then you've got hundreds and thousands of those sitting in pergatory in freezers, that are likely going to be tossed.
I rarely see any pro life people march for them.
I'm realistic. Personally I believe that all unborn babies are fully human. However, I am willing to compromise in order to cut down on the number of abortions. I don't see any willingness to compromise from many people.
Just like the missionaries who go invading areas to 'convert' people. Religious people seem to have a huge need to make others think like they do.
And if these BS pro-lifers cared about lives, they would be helping to take care of unwanted babies after they are born. Do not see that happening. They love life, but are for capital punishment and god help you if you don't think like they do--then they don't care much about 'life.'
They care about 'innocent children' unless they happen to be refugees of war.
They don't care about protecting 'life.' They care about controlling others. This is total crap.
Agreed and incidentally, once again...they fail to address the fertility clinics...
Just like the missionaries who go invading areas to 'convert' people. Religious people seem to have a huge need to make others think like they do.
And if these BS pro-lifers cared about lives, they would be helping to take care of unwanted babies after they are born. Do not see that happening. They love life, but are for capital punishment and god help you if you don't think like they do--then they don't care much about 'life.'
They care about 'innocent children' unless they happen to be refugees of war.
They don't care about protecting 'life.' They care about controlling others. This is total crap.
See, this is why we can never seem to have a good, productive conversation on this topic - people immediately revert to insults and inflammatory language.
This sort of response reminds me of why I don't usually debate abortion online.
I'm done. Now please understand - it's not because I feel like I've "lost" or that I can't refute arguments. It's because I'm wasting my time discussing this here. Lots of unsubstantiated rhetoric and insulting language and unfounded accusations. I've got better things to do with my time than try to discuss this here.
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