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I listen to talk radio a lot (mostly Rush and Michael Berry) because I think its important to understand the point of view of people you disagree with. And I listen to a lot of my very liberal friends as well. Neither seems to understand why the Muslim ban is such a bad idea.
The folks on the left make it all about "thats not who we are". Well thats demonstrably false, thats not who a lot of us are, but thats not who is in power. And they make the argument that it makes us less safe-but very few understand why. They make it about how we lose worldwide support, etc. They are not completely wrong either-there have been little or no terrorists from those countries.
The folks on the right think it makes us more safe. This to them is just common sense. And knee jerk reaction is they are right.
But I disagree with everyone it seems. I think that's because few people are taking the time to understand our enemy. ISIS/ISIL/whatever you want to call them has some specific goals in mind, and the number one thing they have desperately wanted is to make this war about religion. Until they do Muslims look at it as a good guy vs bad guy sort of thing. And the risks of joining are quite apparent. As long as we treated them separately from regular Muslims no one wants to be them for the most part. The second we made this more about religion we run the risk of having it become that way. And despite what most people think, theres a LOT of Muslims out there. And right now they are looking at us, and seeing themselves labeled (rightly or wrongly) as the bad guys. ISIS is having a field day with this-and they have some amazingly effective propaganda. If your enemy is cheering you on, you have made a dramatic error in judgement.
Basically-if you accuse someone of X, and punish them for it, they have less reason to not do X.
And finally, we targeted this poorly. We included green card holders. And we targeted the wrong countries. Saying "Well the Obama administration" is a cop out of the most idiotic sort. The Obama Administration were labeling with different criteria.
Who should we have targeted? Well Syria was not completely unreasonable (assuming you don't have a ounce of caring in you), But we should have chosen countries that are sources of terrorists. That means, Tunisia, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, France, and Russia. Those from a sheer numbers stand point were where ISIS has gotten recruits outside of the local area. But then if you look at probabilities per person, it should be Finland, Ireland, Australia, Belgium, and Denmark. What would a rational division of this look like?
Banning Finland, Ireland, Australia, Tunisia, Saudi, and morocco.
But better then doing that, would have been not making this exactly what ISIS wanted it to be. A religious war instead of a good guy vs bad guy war. I had hoped Mattis would have been able to get this point across.
You are spot on. Someone on the TV commented that ISIS has been handed the greatest gift they could, through this idiotic act by Trump. They are very smart at recruiting, and now have the perfect argument to use to convince even more people that Americans are pigs and need to die.
Trump put NO thought into this ban, none whatsoever. In his childish, uneducated desire to show how macho he is, he raced into this decision blindly, and has painted America into a corner. WE hate what he did, THE WORLD hates what he did, but ISIS LOVES what he did.
Of all the dumba** tricks this buffoon has pulled, this one, so far, tops them all. It is wrong and dangerous on so many levels, many of which we have not begun to see yet. He really needs to be pulled out of that seat, and pulled out soon, before he does even more damage to America and Americans.
I just pray that he has not already caused more fringe element people to become radicalized and Hellbent on doing harm to us here.
According to Giuliani the objective is to ban Muslims from entry into the US. The country business was a guise to avoid constitutional conflicts. There is reporting that a much broader ban on visas to the US is in the works that will include persons whose origins are the middle east but come from European or other countries outside the middle east. Again, the ban will be couched in terms that emphasize national origin and not religion.
From a safety perspective, this makes sense if you accept that exclusion is effective and ignore inspiration of internal threats. Most expert opinion I have seen agrees that the real threat is inspiration of people already here through anger over perceived religious discrimination - and not importation of foreigners. So expansion of the ban to "friendly" countries will be greeted with praise by those who think importation is the problem and warnings will come from the security experts who are nearly unanimous that anything that angers vulnerable people already among us is unwise. Trump will doubtless pander to the importation viewpoint. Seeing the other point of view requires empathetic reasoning which Trump does not seem capable of.
This is RIDICULOUS! If just because we implemented a temporary pause, those people would join ISIS and become terrorists, we definitely don't want those people!!!! Next time we didn't fart in the right direction, they would just nuke us.
This premise is crazy and precisely why we need a permanent ban if true.
I think we should all accept the new normal. We are going to be in the middle east for a very loooooooong time.
In my opinion, ISIS is hard to be destroyed because all the countries involved have different interests in countries where ISIS exists, even though all of these countries strive for eliminating the same enemy - ISIS, there are many groups that have vested interests in the area. Middle East has been historically a complex group of countries where countries have fought for political, religious, and oil related reasons.
The way I see it? the 90 days travel ban?
well, Should Trump do it? That is a good question, but he ran on it. He told people he would during the campaign. Its not like he surprised us.
Is it going to work? who knows?
Not sure why 90 days is a magic number, but whatever. Trump is keeping his campaign promise to satisfy the base, nothing more in my opinion. Hope it stops here. It is way better than Muslim registration in my opinion.
You are spot on. Someone on the TV commented that ISIS has been handed the greatest gift they could, through this idiotic act by Trump. They are very smart at recruiting, and now have the perfect argument to use to convince even more people that Americans are pigs and need to die.
Trump put NO thought into this ban, none whatsoever. In his childish, uneducated desire to show how macho he is, he raced into this decision blindly, and has painted America into a corner. WE hate what he did, THE WORLD hates what he did, but ISIS LOVES what he did.
Of all the dumba** tricks this buffoon has pulled, this one, so far, tops them all. It is wrong and dangerous on so many levels, many of which we have not begun to see yet. He really needs to be pulled out of that seat, and pulled out soon, before he does even more damage to America and Americans.
I just pray that he has not already caused more fringe element people to become radicalized and Hellbent on doing harm to us here.
Sadly most trump supporters don't agree with you or the OP.
They knew what trump was and still is and without any thought they all made a hard right turn and joined with Bannon as the leader of the RWNJ's and pulled the lever for trump.
There is zero chance of his supporters ever thinking trump is making bad decisions or they made a bad decision voting for him.
Some of the true conservatives in Congress are finally seeing the light and hopefully will be voting against the orange buffoon.
Don't count on his supporters in public doing the same.
I listen to talk radio a lot (mostly Rush and Michael Berry) because I think its important to understand the point of view of people you disagree with. And I listen to a lot of my very liberal friends as well. Neither seems to understand why the Muslim ban is such a bad idea.
The folks on the left make it all about "thats not who we are". Well thats demonstrably false, thats not who a lot of us are, but thats not who is in power. And they make the argument that it makes us less safe-but very few understand why. They make it about how we lose worldwide support, etc. They are not completely wrong either-there have been little or no terrorists from those countries.
The folks on the right think it makes us more safe. This to them is just common sense. And knee jerk reaction is they are right.
But I disagree with everyone it seems. I think that's because few people are taking the time to understand our enemy. ISIS/ISIL/whatever you want to call them has some specific goals in mind, and the number one thing they have desperately wanted is to make this war about religion. Until they do Muslims look at it as a good guy vs bad guy sort of thing. And the risks of joining are quite apparent. As long as we treated them separately from regular Muslims no one wants to be them for the most part. The second we made this more about religion we run the risk of having it become that way. And despite what most people think, theres a LOT of Muslims out there. And right now they are looking at us, and seeing themselves labeled (rightly or wrongly) as the bad guys. ISIS is having a field day with this-and they have some amazingly effective propaganda. If your enemy is cheering you on, you have made a dramatic error in judgement.
Basically-if you accuse someone of X, and punish them for it, they have less reason to not do X.
And finally, we targeted this poorly. We included green card holders. And we targeted the wrong countries. Saying "Well the Obama administration" is a cop out of the most idiotic sort. The Obama Administration were labeling with different criteria.
Who should we have targeted? Well Syria was not completely unreasonable (assuming you don't have a ounce of caring in you), But we should have chosen countries that are sources of terrorists. That means, Tunisia, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, France, and Russia. Those from a sheer numbers stand point were where ISIS has gotten recruits outside of the local area. But then if you look at probabilities per person, it should be Finland, Ireland, Australia, Belgium, and Denmark. What would a rational division of this look like?
Banning Finland, Ireland, Australia, Tunisia, Saudi, and morocco.
But better then doing that, would have been not making this exactly what ISIS wanted it to be. A religious war instead of a good guy vs bad guy war. I had hoped Mattis would have been able to get this point across.
Taking the long view you are correct. In the short term what is needed is exactly what Trump has done. Keeping the home land safe from psychopaths.
If Ponderosa is correct about the future plans to heavily restrict or ban immigration from other countries, then the notion of "making us less safe" will become irrelevant.
This is RIDICULOUS! If just because we implemented a temporary pause, those people would join ISIS and become terrorists, we definitely don't want those people!!!! Next time we didn't fart in the right direction, they would just nuke us.
This premise is crazy and precisely why we need a permanent ban if true.
You just proved how crazy those people are!!
I really hate their argument that these are just nice people, but if we're not nice in return they will join a death cult that has chopped of thousands of people's heads and put them on pikes (and filmed them as recruitment material), burned people alive in cages, buried people alive including children, and have enslaved hundreds of women for their sexual enjoyment.
So, do we really want people like that coming here by the thousands?
Trump and Bannon's Muslim travel ban had nothing to do with national security.
Though it reinforces ISIS's claims that Americans hate Muslims, I doubt that's news.
What it does is distract our attention from more nefarious things going on.
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He really needs to be pulled out of that seat, and pulled out soon, before he does even more damage to America and Americans.
