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Old 06-03-2017, 04:51 AM
 
Location: Central Mexico and Central Florida
7,150 posts, read 4,907,598 times
Reputation: 10444

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Coal is a 19th century fuel; a border wall is 11th century technology.

Not exactly a visionary president.
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Old 06-03-2017, 06:03 AM
 
8,312 posts, read 3,930,579 times
Reputation: 10651
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
I wonder if this preference for believing in self-serving fantasies is why there is such an affinity between the religious right and conservatives.
Extreme political ideology and extreme religious views definitely fill the same psychological need, a lot of parallels since both require the devotee to set aside adherence to logic and facts, and substitute a feel-good fantasy in it's place. Which is why it is completely consistent to view the hard-line Trump supporters as a cult. It's not a personal dig, just a reality of the mindset. The difference in the situation here in 2017 is that with the Internet, it is far more difficult to prop up that fantasy world when the facts are at everyone's fingertips. Back in the days of newspaper and radio it was a lot easier to keep the adherents in line. Sure you will still have some that will drink the Kool-aid no matter how far Trump goes down the rabbit hole. Same as you have people that take a literal interpretation of every line in the Bible, that handle poisonous snakes and believe in speaking in tongues.
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Old 06-03-2017, 08:17 AM
 
41,813 posts, read 51,068,169 times
Reputation: 17865
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
This is a RWNJ lie.

Clinton pointed out the future did not look good for coal mining and advocated for retraining options for unemployed miners.
While she did make the promise to retrain what she said was...

"We are going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business."

That's the exact quote. For starters telling someone you are going to put them out of job that on average pays 70 to 80K regardless of what you are promising them is not the wisest thing to do.

They heard the same comments from Obama about bankrupting the coal industry and the same promises of new jobs that never materialized. What is most important to understand about this is she wasn't just talking to coal miners.... Anyone in any industry that has seen their jobs go away because of Democratic policies heard her loud and clear. The guy in the heavy equipment industry making 70 to 80K heard her loud and clear. The welder making 70 to 80K a year laying pipe for the Dakota pipeline heard her loud and clear. The guy driving a truck in support of these industries heard her loud and clear.

While her intention was to comment on coal mines that message was heard by many people in many industries.
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Old 06-03-2017, 08:30 AM
 
8,504 posts, read 4,565,672 times
Reputation: 9756
Another job factor in addition to the diminishing demand for coal is the increased automation used to mine coal. Automation is replacing workers. It is more productive and free from most all safety concerns. It is a HUGE reason why there are far fewer coal jobs. Getting rid of regulations and environmental safeguards will not bring these jobs back.
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Old 06-03-2017, 08:40 AM
 
51,654 posts, read 25,836,151 times
Reputation: 37894
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
...Anyone in any industry that has seen their jobs go away because of Democratic policies heard her loud and clear. T...
Clean air and water are only Democratic policies?

Renewable energy is only a Democratic policy?

Going to blame computers and automatation on those damned Democrats?
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Old 06-03-2017, 08:44 AM
 
Location: Sonoran Desert
39,076 posts, read 51,246,227 times
Reputation: 28325
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndcairngorm View Post
This is something that will disappoint the people of W. Virginia, Pennsylvania, etc., because they were told if they voted for Trump he would get their coal mining jobs back. It doesn't take too much intelligence to understand that an old broken down plant or mining operation is not going to be re-vitalized, rebuilt, and put back into operation. It would just be too expensive. And no one is going to spend money building a new operation that is based on 19th century work. Otherwise, we'd still have lots of horseshoe and horse leather operations around.
I think the people in those areas get it. I see interviews from "coal country" all the time and the people all realize that they are the last of a dying class of worker. They appreciate that natural gas and environmental concerns and economic reality are working against them. They know their kids will not follow them into the mines. I doubt they voted for Trump thinking he was going to reverse all that. Trumplove is more primitive, more visceral than that. It's about cultural identity not an impossible promise. Everyone knows Trump can't fix it, but just coming to town to hold a rally - acknowledging the pain - caring - is enough.
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Old 06-03-2017, 08:49 AM
 
18,983 posts, read 9,080,699 times
Reputation: 14688
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Anyone in any industry that has seen their jobs go away because of Democratic policies heard her loud and clear.
That's akin to saying the buggy whip manufacturers heard the automobile manufacturers loud and clear. Coal mining as a profession is dying of natural causes because the world is moving on from coal, and what remains to be mined can be more safely and efficiently done through automation.

You are essentially blaming the Democrats for progress. Which on some level makes sense, because Conservatives are all about regressing.
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Old 06-03-2017, 08:53 AM
 
41,813 posts, read 51,068,169 times
Reputation: 17865
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
Coal is not coming back. No more coal-fired power plants are being built
At the very least the bleeding is going to stop. The plants that remain are newer and many of them could be in service for the next 50 years sans any government interference.

There is couple of things that need to change before new plants will be built in earnest. BTU for BTU coal has been about half the cost of natural gas since the natural gas boom started. Modern natural gas plants are less costly to build and much more efficient than traditional coal and natural gas plants which is what narrows that gap.

The same tech being used in modern natural gas plants that increase their effcicncy is being developed for coal, when that comes to market the cost comparisons change dramatically.

The other issue and much more tricky to alleviate is what future administrations and legislators will do. Without some kind of guarantee they will be able operate those plants it's a very risky investment in particular with the possibility of CO2 caps .


Quote:
Even China's backing off.
China hasn't backed off on anything, they over produced coal plants and they simply can't justify the same pace until their economy improves.

Quote:
Solar is cheaper
No it is not hence the reason the solar industry was crying about bankrupt without the extension of the tax credits. Even if it were cheaper watt for watt it cannot and will never replace coal. natural gas, hydro or nuclear.
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Old 06-03-2017, 08:56 AM
 
41,813 posts, read 51,068,169 times
Reputation: 17865
Quote:
Originally Posted by dothetwist View Post
Coal is a 19th century fuel;.
Coal produces heat, heat never gets outdated. The source of that heat varies but this is how we produce most of the electric we consume.
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Old 06-03-2017, 09:05 AM
 
41,813 posts, read 51,068,169 times
Reputation: 17865
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMS02760 View Post
Another job factor in addition to the diminishing demand for coal is the increased automation used to mine coal. Automation is replacing workers.
This affects every industry, what we are discussing here is government regulations exacerbating those issues.

Quote:
Getting rid of regulations and environmental safeguards will not bring these jobs back.
In a hypothetical situation where environmental concerns were tossed aside and a guarantee they were not coming back the coal industry would absolutely boom. That of course is not going to happen and not something anyone would want to see.
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