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The comparison of health care systems is wandering way off topic. I thank the mods for their patience with us. That discussion is more suitable for its own thread, so I will halt my participation in it at this point. I will point out that Americans pay for a lot of fluff. Demanding that hospitals and doctors compete means advertising and offering amenities that I somehow doubt countries with universal care have to pay for. There are billboards all over my town for physician practices and the two hospitals.
No, figuring out the science of vaccines requires no guessing. There is truly no debate among the people who know most about them. The "debate" is solely manufactured by the anti-vax folks, and the Suzanne Humphries book mentioned earlier truly is typical of the absolute garbage that anti-vaccinationists use to try to justify not vaccinating.
Using a bad experience with one aspect of the medical system as a reason to distrust everything about the system is hardly logical, especially when the bad experience is with individuals who are not typical of everyone in the system. Anyone who has questions about vaccines can get them answered. Talk to your child's pediatrician. Do not buy Suzanne Humphries' book or others like it. Visit science based websites. I gave some links earlier. Do not trust anyone who wants you to use supplements rather than vaccines. There are no supplements that prevent VPDs.
The number who do not vaccinate is not large. The problem is that they like to live in clusters. That destroys herd immunity. If there were only one refusing family here and there, we could let them freeload on herd immunity. There are some places where vaccination rates are way below the herd immunity threshold, however. The more areas like that we have, the more opportunity there is for larger outbreaks, like the one that started at the Disney park.
Vaccine refusal is a serious public health threat.
Well, I disagree with about the topic as you already know. So I won't be adhering to that advice.
I don't agree with your second paragraph either. I think all science should be looked into if you question it and there is obviously a debate.
The third I agree with in part. If you only used one bad experience to judge a whole system that would be illogical and emotional. But, that simply isn't the case. Most people experience a plethora of medical mistakes, and bad advice in their life time. We are a commercial medical system. Consumers will question it as they do all purchases. No avoiding that, until you change the system. Which is why it is on topic. It's the broader picture of why the vaccine debate is polarized. We just disagree. That doesn't mean you are correct. I don't agree that more Americans are just stupid about science.
I don't agree with the last line. I don't agree that vaccine refusal is a SERIOUS health threat.
I did notice that you were up all night posting. I support your choice to stay up all night whenever you want and for whatever reason even though it's not healthy at all. It's also not healthy to worry so much about other people's medical decisions. If you weren't badgering others about their health choices, I wouldn't say a word about yours but since that's exactly what you are doing, I don't feel bad at all for pointing that out. Sleep is so important. It actually does matter when you get it. People who work the night shift and sleep during the day have real consequences to their health because of it. If you are so worried about health then making it a priority to sleep at night seems reasonable instead of spending so much time worrying about the small group of people who don't vaccinate for everything on the schedule.
I am quite healthy. Thanks for your concern.
I will continue to rebut all the anti-vaccine pseudoscience I see here because it is reason for concern.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48
If you think that "anti-vaxxers" can fit into some neat profile, you are very naive. They come in all different demographics; Republicans and Democrats, Liberal and Conservative, Financial Status, Geographic Locations, even Age Groups.
Do you seriously think that all those Parents, and 18-26 year old Adults, refusing HPV vaccinations fit your preconceived profile of "Anti-Vaxxers"? Pregnant Women who refuse Tdap and Flu Vaccines? Certainly, you cannot paint that broad a brush with Flu Vaccinations. Half the country would be Anti-Vaxxers by your standard. Perhaps, add Shingles Vaccination of the Elderly Population to that mix. While you may want total compliance, life isn't like this. You have millions of people picking and choosing which vaccinations, or delayed schedules, they want for their kids, and themselves.
Labels do not work with this issue. Life isn't all Black and White. I am very surprised that at your age that you haven't learned this.
If you refuse to understand your "enemy", you will never convince them, and this goes way beyond vaccinations. You will only get people fighting back against you, if nothing else but the freedom to choose their own medical treatment in a Free American Society. "Imposed" Consequences which you want for universal vaccinations of every kind?
As I explained to Tokinouta, you and MissTerri are not the reason I post here. You will never be convinced. Frankly, my dear, I don't give a hoot. I wish for people who have concerns about vaccines to see that people like Suzanne Humphries are not good sources for vaccine information. There are a lot of people here on CD, with this thread alone having over 6000 views. My over 17,000 posts have been read over 20,000,000 times, and a lot of those posts are about vaccines. Perhaps at least a few children will not get sick because of what I have written because their parents choose to vaccinate.
If your "freedom to choose" did not have "consequences" for anyone except yourself we would not be having this conversation.
So am I and so are my kids. Thanks for your concern.
Quote:
I will continue to rebut all the anti-vaccine pseudoscience I see here because it is reason for concern.
The tiny group of people who don't vaccinate for anything as well as the small group of people who don't vaccinate for everything is really one of your big concerns in life? Has something really bad happened to you or your family because someone else didn't vaccinate? I'm trying to understand where your passion comes from in regards to vaccines and the desire to get EVERYONE on board with ALL vaccines.
Quote:
As I explained to Tokinouta, you and MissTerri are not the reason I post here. You will never be convinced. Frankly, my dear, I don't give a hoot. I wish for people who have concerns about vaccines to see that people like Suzanne Humphries are not good sources for vaccine information. There are a lot of people here on CD, with this thread alone having over 6000 views. My over 17,000 posts have been read over 20,000,000 times, and a lot of those posts are about vaccines. Perhaps at least a few children will not get sick because of what I have written because their parents choose to vaccinate.
You really seem threatened by Dr. Humphries. You want people to trust medical professionals yet you expect people to believe you, a random internet poster, over her, someone who worked in the medical field for more then 20 years and who is an MD. What you mean to say is that you only want people to trust medical authorities who are 100% on board with all vaccines and who do not express any reservations about them. Suzanne Humphries, MD | drsuzannehumphries@gmail.com
Quote:
I am a conventionally educated medical doctor who was a participant in the conventional hospital system from 1989 until 2011.* After leaving the hospital in good standing, of my own volition in 2011, I have been furthering my research, lecturing in various parts of the world, writing books, and conducting my own private practice in Maine and Virginia.
I hold current*American Board of Internal Medicine certifications in internal medicine and nephrology.
That is interesting that you are keeping track of the number of times people have read your vaccine related posts. I'm interested in this topic mainly because I am fearful that our ability to choose is being eroded. I don't however think of this as a platform for influencing or swaying people's opinions on a massive scale.
Last edited by MissTerri; 04-11-2017 at 01:47 PM..
You really seem threatened by Dr. Humphries. You want people to trust medical professionals yet you expect people to believe you, a random internet poster, over her, someone who worked in the medical field for more then 20 years and who is an MD. What you mean to say is that you only want people to trust medical authorities who are 100% on board with all vaccines and who do not express any reservations about them. Suzanne Humphries, MD | drsuzannehumphries@gmail.com
That is interesting that you are keeping track of the number of times people have read your vaccine related posts. I'm interested in this topic mainly because I am fearful that our ability to choose is being eroded. I don't however think of this as a platform for influencing or swaying people's opinions on a massive scale, nor would I want to.
Can the "keyboard psychology". Suzanne Humphries is listed in the "Encyclopedia of American Loons". I posted the link at least once in this thread alone. She's nuts, MissTerri. No one to get information from.
It's nice you have a reason for posting, just like all of us do. Why put down someone else's? You like to find a way to get in these digs frequently, don't you? Not very conducive to a good discussion.
Can the "keyboard psychology". Suzanne Humphries is listed in the "Encyclopedia of American Loons". I posted the link at least once in this thread alone. She's nuts, MissTerri. No one to get information from.
It's nice you have a reason for posting, just like all of us do. Why put down someone else's? You like to find a way to get in these digs frequently, don't you? Not very conducive to a good discussion.
Who is is behind the, "Encyclopedia of American Loons". Dr. Humphries has more medical training then you or I. How is she "nuts". No one should get their information from a hate website aka "Encyclopedia of American Loons".
I was asking what is behind Suzy's passion for vaccines.
People in glass houses should not throw stones, Katarina.
Who is is behind the, "Encyclopedia of American Loons". Dr. Humphries has more medical training then you or I. How is she "nuts". No one should get their information from a hate website aka "Encyclopedia of American Loons".
I was asking what is behind Suzy's passion for vaccines.
People in glass houses should not throw stones, Katarina.
I doubt the good doctor has more "training" about vaccines than me, frankly. "Hate website", LOL! I thought you didn't read the anti-vax literature. What's your basis for saying "Encyclopedia of American Loons" is a hate website"? Every pro-science website is a hate website in your opinion.
How is she nuts? Let me count the ways. She believes in the "Big Pharma" conspiracy. She thinks doctors are hiding a cure for cancer (chelation) to make money off cancer patients. And much more.
You were not asking what was behind suzy's passion for vaccines. You were trying to put down her reasons. Yours are better. We know, we've heard all this before. I have a pretty good memory, too, MT.
I doubt the good doctor has more "training" about vaccines than me, frankly. "Hate website", LOL! I thought you didn't read the anti-vax literature. What's your basis for saying "Encyclopedia of American Loons" is a hate website"? Every pro-science website is a hate website in your opinion.
How is she nuts? Let me count the ways. She believes in the "Big Pharma" conspiracy. She thinks doctors are hiding a cure for cancer (chelation) to make money off cancer patients. And much more.
You were not asking what was behind suzy's passion for vaccines. You were trying to put down her reasons. Yours are better. We know, we've heard all this before. I have a pretty good memory, too, MT.
Are you saying that nurses are more educated about vaccines then doctors?
Who is behind the website, "Encyclopedia of American Loons"? A website dedicated to slandering people is a hate website.
Your opinion is that Suzanne Humphries is nuts. Not everyone shares your opinion.
I may not understand Suzy's passion for vaccines but that does not mean that I am trying to put her down. I find it very confusing. That is all.
Last edited by MissTerri; 04-11-2017 at 04:37 PM..
I didn't say anything about YOUR exercise habits or eating habits. I have no clue about those things. I was only talking about YOUR worrying about people's vaccine status and odd sleep schedule.
Not taking care of your body will make you more susceptible to illness and to complications from illness.
Again, thanks for your concern. I am quite well despite my "odd sleep schedule'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokinouta
Well, I disagree with about the topic as you already know. So I won't be adhering to that advice.
I don't agree with your second paragraph either. I think all science should be looked into if you question it and there is obviously a debate.
The third I agree with in part. If you only used one bad experience to judge a whole system that would be illogical and emotional. But, that simply isn't the case. Most people experience a plethora of medical mistakes, and bad advice in their life time. We are a commercial medical system. Consumers will question it as they do all purchases. No avoiding that, until you change the system. Which is why it is on topic. It's the broader picture of why the vaccine debate is polarized. We just disagree. That doesn't mean you are correct. I don't agree that more Americans are just stupid about science.
I don't agree with the last line. I don't agree that vaccine refusal is a SERIOUS health threat.
If you are going to question science you should have a body of evidence supporting why you think the science is wrong. There is no debate about vaccine science from the community of scientists who develop and administer vaccines. All the anti-vax side has is people like Humphries who give webinars on the "energy" of homeopathy and recycle anti-vax myths over and over and over.
No, "most people" do not "experience a plethora of medical mistakes, and bad advice in their life time." The media may make it sound like that is true, but all the folks who are happy with their medical care are not on the internet posting about it.
My father's internist could have written off a bit of nondescript chest pain as indigestion. Instead he did an EKG and my dad had bypass surgery the same day after a heart cath showed a blockage. My son's leukemia presented as just fatigue from climbing the stairs in my home. His pediatrician diagnosed the leukemia, we saw the pediatric oncologist the next day, and thanks to a crack team of doctors (and Big Pharma) he is alive and healthy today. I had an intestinal blockage several years ago due to scar tissue from surgery I had had when I was in my twenties. I was in the operating room less than hour after I walked in the ER with belly pain. My husband has had a melanoma removed from his face. It was treated early and there is small risk of recurrence. My daughter in law had an emergency cesarean section when my granddaughter was born. It turned out there was an unusual abnormality of the placenta and a vaginal birth would have killed the baby. My mother unfortunately had serious complications from heart bypass surgery. Her surgeon was not incompetent and he did not make any mistakes. The complication was due to her disease, not bad medicine. I take a statin because I want to avoid bypass surgery if I can. I listen to my doctor and follow his advice. There are millions like my family members.
There are plenty of good doctors out there. If you check with family and friends you can usually find those they are happy with. If you know any nurses who work in hospitals they can often tell you who the best surgeons and specialists are.
Sorry, but many Americans cannot correctly answer questions on basic middle school level science. About half believe there is a scientific basis for astrology. About a quarter of Americans think homeopathy is effective and about half are unsure whether it is or isn't.
Yes, vaccine refusal is a serious public health threat. Vaccine refusal fueled the Disney outbreak of measles. Every outbreak of measles seen in the US in recent years happened in unvaccinated populations. "I don't trust medicine" is not a valid reason to refuse vaccines.
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