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I have asked many times for a coherent definition of property but this thread is apparently full of incompetent buffoons. Apparently making empty platitudes with an undefined premise is just grand.
Tell ya what, I am as libertarian for goodness. If you oppose me then you are about badness. That's the incoherent nonsense I see here.
I have asked many times for a coherent definition of property but this thread is apparently full of incompetent buffoons. Apparently making empty platitudes with an undefined premise is just grand.
Tell ya what, I am as libertarian for goodness. If you oppose me then you are about badness. That's the incoherent nonsense I see here.
A power vacuum only exists in a society where people believe they need a ruler or ruling group. A ruler's power is dependent on the ruled.
You can't rule millions of people by force alone. You need a society of people who believe in your right to rule them. Why do you think every government in history propagandizes their citizens and tries to control the media, and why many set up government school systems that teach loyalty to the state?
Even if you take the current U.S. government, law enforcement, military, etc. they could not rule the United States without the 300 million citizens believing in their legitimacy.
Of course it always comes down to who can best use force, state or not. 300 million people who don't want to be bossed around or have their money stolen by a ruling class vastly outnumber any organization that tries to become their ruler. If you have 5000 people who don't want to be ruled, but 50000000 people trying to rule them, they'll probably lose. State vs. stateless makes no difference.
This is a very, very important point and one I reference in discussions about the possibility of the system breaking down.
Most states are "rule by the few over the many." The only way this works is if the many believe/have faith in the legitimacy of rule by the few. Take away the faith, and there's no way 535 people in the House and Senate tell 330 million people what to do on a daily basis. The armed citizen outnumbers police and military by ~20 to 1. What gives an "army" that is outnumbered by 20 to 1 any sort of authority on a battlefield is if the "army" that opposes them and outnumbers them by 20 to 1 believes in that smaller force's supremacy, authority, etc.
In these libertarian bash-a-thons, the belief that people can self-regulate according the NAP is ridiculed as high fantasy, but the reality of current state is that 330 million people politely allow a tiny minority to rule them with with absolute power based on nothing more than simple faith that this tyrannical rule by the minority is indeed the way things ought to be. We politely go along our days most of the time, and the theory is that we are all good little boys and girls because we fear the penalty for being bad. Distilled down, we are good boys and girls because we fear a tiny minority that we vastly outnumber, but have decided to grant absolute power over us. Picture 20 big, strong tough guys being backed down by a single person, and when asked why they would back down from that one person, they all say "well we agreed that person is boss, so they are and after you agree, well the boss is boss."
It is belief, faith and fear that allows tiny minorities to rule over much larger majorities. Belief/faith that an all powerful entity with a monopoly on force and violence is both necessary and proper, and fear of what that monopoly on force and violence will do to you if you are a bad boy or girl.
The criticism of libertarianism's stateless society is that it requires belief/faith that individuals can be good boys and girls without that fear, and a mutual understanding of how the NAP works, particular for self-defense and responses to initiations of force.
Get that? Adherents of one system of faith are clowning another system because it requires faith. Our entire current society depends on faith in that society, and not really all that much faith. It's really very little glue that holds this whole thing together, but it way more faith than anything tangible. The state has power over us because we give it to them. Not just once back in 1789, but every minute of every day we reaffirm their power over us. We inherently understand the quasi-slave relationship, but we fear the unknown of real freedom more than we do the punishments Master may dole out if we miss tribute payments or stray too far in our daily lives. So we put faith in Master and legitimize them as our absolute ruler.
end of the day, the whole setup requires faith. Lots of it.
I have asked many times for a coherent definition of property but this thread is apparently full of incompetent buffoons. Apparently making empty platitudes with an undefined premise is just grand.
Tell ya what, I am as libertarian for goodness. If you oppose me then you are about badness. That's the incoherent nonsense I see here.
No_Recess obviously isn't taking you seriously, and I get that rebeldor's approach offends you, but it's not incompetence.
I gave a definition of property. It's something you're the rightful owner of. That's not an accurate definition?
And on the bold...we're very clear about what we're against. Initiating force and violating property rights. Do you believe in those principles or not? I'm honestly asking. Maybe you would personally resort to force to make your neighbor fund the things you want.
This is a very, very important point and one I reference in discussions about the possibility of the system breaking down.
Most states are "rule by the few over the many." The only way this works is if the many believe/have faith in the legitimacy of rule by the few. Take away the faith, and there's no way 535 people in the House and Senate tell 330 million people what to do on a daily basis. The armed citizen outnumbers police and military by ~20 to 1. What gives an "army" that is outnumbered by 20 to 1 any sort of authority on a battlefield is if the "army" that opposes them and outnumbers them by 20 to 1 believes in that smaller force's supremacy, authority, etc.
In these libertarian bash-a-thons, the belief that people can self-regulate according the NAP is ridiculed as high fantasy, but the reality of current state is that 330 million people politely allow a tiny minority to rule them with with absolute power based on nothing more than simple faith that this tyrannical rule by the minority is indeed the way things ought to be. We politely go along our days most of the time, and the theory is that we are all good little boys and girls because we fear the penalty for being bad. Distilled down, we are good boys and girls because we fear a tiny minority that we vastly outnumber, but have decided to grant absolute power over us. Picture 20 big, strong tough guys being backed down by a single person, and when asked why they would back down from that one person, they all say "well we agreed that person is boss, so they are and after you agree, well the boss is boss."
It is belief, faith and fear that allows tiny minorities to rule over much larger majorities. Belief/faith that an all powerful entity with a monopoly on force and violence is both necessary and proper, and fear of what that monopoly on force and violence will do to you if you are a bad boy or girl.
The criticism of libertarianism's stateless society is that it requires belief/faith that individuals can be good boys and girls without that fear, and a mutual understanding of how the NAP works, particular for self-defense and responses to initiations of force.
Get that? Adherents of one system of faith are clowning another system because it requires faith. Our entire current society depends on faith in that society, and not really all that much faith. It's really very little glue that holds this whole thing together, but it way more faith than anything tangible. The state has power over us because we give it to them. Not just once back in 1789, but every minute of every day we reaffirm their power over us. We inherently understand the quasi-slave relationship, but we fear the unknown of real freedom more than we do the punishments Master may dole out if we miss tribute payments or stray too far in our daily lives. So we put faith in Master and legitimize them as our absolute ruler.
end of the day, the whole setup requires faith. Lots of it.
This is a very, very important point and one I reference in discussions about the possibility of the system breaking down.
Most states are "rule by the few over the many." The only way this works is if the many believe/have faith in the legitimacy of rule by the few. Take away the faith, and there's no way 535 people in the House and Senate tell 330 million people what to do on a daily basis. The armed citizen outnumbers police and military by ~20 to 1. What gives an "army" that is outnumbered by 20 to 1 any sort of authority on a battlefield is if the "army" that opposes them and outnumbers them by 20 to 1 believes in that smaller force's supremacy, authority, etc.
In these libertarian bash-a-thons, the belief that people can self-regulate according the NAP is ridiculed as high fantasy, but the reality of current state is that 330 million people politely allow a tiny minority to rule them with with absolute power based on nothing more than simple faith that this tyrannical rule by the minority is indeed the way things ought to be. We politely go along our days most of the time, and the theory is that we are all good little boys and girls because we fear the penalty for being bad. Distilled down, we are good boys and girls because we fear a tiny minority that we vastly outnumber, but have decided to grant absolute power over us. Picture 20 big, strong tough guys being backed down by a single person, and when asked why they would back down from that one person, they all say "well we agreed that person is boss, so they are and after you agree, well the boss is boss."
It is belief, faith and fear that allows tiny minorities to rule over much larger majorities. Belief/faith that an all powerful entity with a monopoly on force and violence is both necessary and proper, and fear of what that monopoly on force and violence will do to you if you are a bad boy or girl.
The criticism of libertarianism's stateless society is that it requires belief/faith that individuals can be good boys and girls without that fear, and a mutual understanding of how the NAP works, particular for self-defense and responses to initiations of force.
Get that? Adherents of one system of faith are clowning another system because it requires faith. Our entire current society depends on faith in that society, and not really all that much faith. It's really very little glue that holds this whole thing together, but it way more faith than anything tangible. The state has power over us because we give it to them. Not just once back in 1789, but every minute of every day we reaffirm their power over us. We inherently understand the quasi-slave relationship, but we fear the unknown of real freedom more than we do the punishments Master may dole out if we miss tribute payments or stray too far in our daily lives. So we put faith in Master and legitimize them as our absolute ruler.
end of the day, the whole setup requires faith. Lots of it.
If they would simply acknowledge the quasi-slavery paradigm I would be happy with that admission alone. It's a start.
Time for my favorite 3-minute cartoon that explains it all. Starting at 2:33 you see what we see in here: anger and refusal to admit that they are slaves.
I have asked many times for a coherent definition of property but this thread is apparently full of incompetent buffoons. Apparently making empty platitudes with an undefined premise is just grand.
Tell ya what, I am as libertarian for goodness. If you oppose me then you are about badness. That's the incoherent nonsense I see here.
Property is only as secure as the government allows it to be, ask a white South African farmer...thats why its SUPER important not to allow any corrupt behavior like bribery
Libertarians may be living in the land of make believe much like the wealthy conservatives from whenst they sprang.... the theory that a society can exist under "self rule" is just an aristocratic wet dream.
Or perhaps they are smart enough to know that "self rule" is just a fantasy but sells well to the fadeing old ritch folks and the angry white men but is in fact just regular old DEREGULATION AGENDA 101, Wealthy insulated few fleecing the poor ignorant masses and aristocratic fear of the growing mass of poor brown people using DEMOCRACY to unseat them from atop their throne
If they would simply acknowledge the quasi-slavery paradigm I would be happy with that admission alone. It's a start.
Time for my favorite 3-minute cartoon that explains it all. Starting at 2:33 you see what we see in here: anger and refusal to admit that they are slaves.
Citizen: help there's a man breaking in my bedroom window with a gun!!
Operator: quick, what's your credit card number sir?
Citizen: let me find my wallet!!
Operator: perhaps you'd like to call us back we're running a special on rape tests this month.
Privatization = corporations wanting to get in between the taxpayer and the service for a profit.
Corporate agenda 101.
Corporations want to provide critical Human services for profit, the government by definition can never maintain a monopoly because they can get voted out of office or fired if they don't do their jobs right.
Once you have a LLC CORPORATION in charge they will simply fire a couple people and change their name and then continue doing business as usual. Their top brass maintains a permanent Monopoly..
You're democratically-elected politician will then just serve as a fall person to take the blame whenever something goes wrong.
didn't we learn anything from eric prince's Blackwater!?!?
Lol... it would be funny if they didn't destroy Americas International credibility.
Private for-profit Enterprises are fantastic and needed to make this economy work however they must never be in CHARGE OF OR USED FOR any critical Human/animal/parks service especially armed services that recieve ANY TAX DOLLARS
you can have private for-profit Enterprises doing anything you want as long as they don't take TAX money in any way shape form or fashion and never REPLACE critical human services.
When people say private companies do things better than the government they're always referring to price... private corporations don't have to play by the same set of rules it's that simple. https://thinkprogress.org/private-pr...-58e048bb37dd/
That video is hilarious they mentioned total Communist States not the Nordic countries ..Europe Australia Canada or New Zealand LOL and slaves aren't allowed to leave and may be bought and sold...there is a huge difference between paying your taxes and slavery... nobody's putting people in jail that live in the trailer park or the ghetto unless they commit crimes... they don't pay any taxes!!!
America was the greatest and most powerful country on Earth between the New Deal and Reagan pretty simple!!
Citizen: help there's a man breaking in my bedroom window with a gun!!
In the current system of waiting for an agent of the state to come help you, the national average response time for police arriving from a 911 emergency call is ~10 minutes.
In the 2nd Amendment, castle doctrine friendly system, the response time is however long it takes you o get your weapon in your hand, aim on target and pull the trigger.
The stateless society would use the 2nd Amendment friendly system, what with self-defense against initiations of force being a natural individual right and all.
Remember the rule, StateBoy - when seconds matter, the police will be there in 10 minutes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boer
the government by definition can never maintain a monopoly because they can get voted out of office or fired if they don't do their jobs right.
Quite possibly the most ignorant quote ever written on the nature of government.
Government, by definition, IS A MONOPOLY on initiating force and violence within a defined geopolitical boundary. The members of the government come and go, but the framework never changes.
In the current system of waiting for an agent of the state to come help you, the national average response time for police arriving from a 911 emergency call is ~10 minutes.
In the 2nd Amendment, castle doctrine friendly system, the response time is however long it takes you o get your weapon in your hand, aim on target and pull the trigger.
The stateless society would use the 2nd Amendment friendly system, what with self-defense against initiations of force being a natural individual right and all.
Remember the rule, StateBoy - when seconds matter, the police will be there in 10 minutes.
Quite possibly the most ignorant quote ever written on the nature of government.
Government, by definition, IS A MONOPOLY on initiating force and violence within a defined geopolitical boundary. The members of the government come and go, but the framework never changes.
When I worked as a police dispatcher the response times were lightning quick.
No...really.
Nobody ever thought about the correlation between slow response times and the decreased likelihood of "finding a crime" which meant
A. No need to file a report.
B. Less crimes reported on the UCR at the end of the year
Cops never did that. I swear. And political pressure to give the appearance of less crimes by encouraging slow response times never occurred. I swear by that too.
Did I convince you?
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