Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Right now, Indians are at a huge disadvantage.
Any person from rest of the world would get their Green Card in a year and have freedom to do whatever he/she wants.
Indians on the other hand, wouldn't get their Green card in their lifetime.
Heavily favor Indians is a flawed argument.
Since it would be first come first serve.
You will have to wait for the person who applied before you.
Discrimination based on country is called Racism.
Discrimination based on country is called Racism
Any American IT worker will ask this same question. Why are their jobs being given to Foreign citizens ? They will claim Racism if they are discriminated in getting the jobs.
freedom to do whatever he/she wants.
I dont think the corporates who brought IT workers in pursuit of cheap labour want their workforce to have freedom to do whatever he/she wants. They are wary of even the Labor Unions. Green card will give their employees the freedom to change the companies which will raise their salaries and will defeat the very purpose of bringing cheap / foreign labor.
What is the advantage of Corporates of after giving green Card, their cheap salary Software Testing / Date Warehouse IT H-1B worker opens a Bombay Tandoori Restaurant ??
How many American people want to hire a legal Mexican citizen to cut the Grass, mow the Lawn !!! ZERO. The only reason they hire illegal is to give them less then minimum wage.
If you give everyone Green Card, they will all be out of job. H-1B cheap wages and servitude is the only thing which is why they are in job !!!
7 % limit and a potential Green Card is an incentive to attract people, atleast it has worked till now. Only in last few years, H-1B workers from india have realised that it will take a long time.
In Foreign country, you dont make rules. Harsh but that is the plain truth !!
Discrimination based on country is called Racism
Any American IT worker will ask this same question. Why are their jobs being given to Foreign citizens ? They will claim Racism if they are discriminated in getting the jobs.
freedom to do whatever he/she wants.
I dont think the corporates who brought IT workers in pursuit of cheap labour want their workforce to have freedom to do whatever he/she wants. They are wary of even the Labor Unions. Green card will give their employees the freedom to change the companies which will raise their salaries and will defeat the very purpose of bringing cheap / foreign labor.
What is the advantage of Corporates of after giving green Card, their cheap salary Software Testing / Date Warehouse IT H-1B worker opens a Bombay Tandoori Restaurant ??
How many American people want to hire a legal Mexican citizen to cut the Grass, mow the Lawn !!! ZERO. The only reason they hire illegal is to give them less then minimum wage.
If you give everyone Green Card, they will all be out of job. H-1B cheap wages and servitude is the only thing which is why they are in job !!!
7 % limit and a potential Green Card is an incentive to attract people, atleast it has worked till now. Only in last few years, H-1B workers from india have realised that it will take a long time.
In Foreign country, you dont make rules. Harsh but that is the plain truth !!
Looks like your emotions are clouding your judgement.
Thats why you are mixing two separate topics.
Get well soon
The savings to companies is enormous
Bottom line they don’t want to pay American wages
At least in my high tech experience, this is false.
There are strict regulations that my HR and Legal Dept must follow to ensure that H-1Bs are paid commensurate with regional market guidelines. And the cost of an H-1B is actually much higher if you factor in all the legal fees and time put into sponsorship. As a hirer of H-1Bs, I can also tell you there are big time delays in getting them on board, as well as risk of them falling through.
So why don't I hire Americans instead, right? Well, Americans don't seem to want or qualify for my jobs. We put more than one position out there in the market year, freely available on internet and the special govt website where they require you to have it for X days, etc... got ONE American who was qualified, and he pulled out later because of commute and personal reasons. So I find what in need in H-1Bs. Best guy in my team who carries the show is an H-1B.
If Americans were applying as viable candidates for my jobs, I'd hire them. But they aren't. It's as simple as that.
At least in my high tech experience, this is false.
There are strict regulations that my HR and Legal Dept must follow to ensure that H-1Bs are paid commensurate with regional market guidelines. And the cost of an H-1B is actually much higher if you factor in all the legal fees and time put into sponsorship. As a hirer of H-1Bs, I can also tell you there are big time delays in getting them on board, as well as risk of them falling through.
So why don't I hire Americans instead, right? Well, Americans don't seem to want or qualify for my jobs. We put more than one position out there in the market year, freely available on internet and the special govt website where they require you to have it for X days, etc... got ONE American who was qualified, and he pulled out later because of commute and personal reasons. So I find what in need in H-1Bs. Best guy in my team who carries the show is an H-1B.
If Americans were applying as viable candidates for my jobs, I'd hire them. But they aren't. It's as simple as that.
This is what confuses me so much, your case sounds legit, but there are so many other companies that clearly abuse the H-1B visa for indentured servitude cheap labor despite qualified Americans. Disney alone showed the very worst abuses in 2015 when they laid off working Americans to replace them with Indian indentured servants at lower salaries, a 100% different case than what your describing. The strict regulations you point out here were clearly not applied in Disney's case, not only were qualified Americans available, they were already working there when Disney moved to replace them with cheap labor, a clear violation of the law. Again here is the NYT article lays it out straight. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/u...lacements.html
And then there are the shenanigans that Cohen and Grigsby tried to pull with fake job ads where there was a clear effort to do the opposite of the careful steps you've been doing, ensure Americans wouldn't get hired-- they say this straight out in the recording!-- and instead hire only slave labor from India and Philippines, that they could treat like dirt, work to death and use and discard while the corrupt execs could buy an extra yacht.
Again to be totally clear, I'm not questioning you here at all because I do know some cases, like you talk about, where the letter and basic principle of the law were followed on H-1B, there was a clear good faith effort to recruit Americans first, wages for the foreign recruits were high (same level as Americans) and there was in general an honest attempt to make sure the jobs were there for Americans. I don't have a problem with this, after all this is what Europe and South American countries like Brazil, Chile and Argentina also do when they hire American tech experts, look for local talent first but then, if not available, bring in talented overseas workers (including Americans and Canadians) who are paid at the same or higher wages. This after all, is how it's supposed to work. Although I still feel like this exposes problems with the American system, esp. with education and training (student loans are so damn high for Americans studying STEM that they're discouraged when good jobs are iffy or outsourced, a chicken and egg problem), and certainly early internships and entry level training should be restricted to Americans to start the career ladder, I get where you're coming from here. One of my own company in Texas faced same issue years ago.
But it seems like for every case like yours where you act in good faith and follow the rules, there are dozens of others where the H-1B is clearly abused and used for cheap labor, while older Americans workers are put out to pasture or younger Americans are kept off the career ladder, unable to get health insurance and unable to get those critical early breaks that build their careers and keep American tech strong. And these cases are documented, Disney is tip of iceberg, there's also been a lot of abuses documented with Microsoft, Oracle, Hewlett Packard, Goldman Sachs and other banks, insurance comapnies, accounting companies. Maybe it's the bigger more powerful companies who can bribe politicians with campaign contributions, that are doing the main abuses? Hard to say, but the solution is relatively easy, demand and closely enforce rules about salary levels, demand a high minimum like $150,000 annual salary which is not unusual for this field if truly recruiting needed overseas talent, include harsher punishments when the law is broken (including prison terms for execs) for abuses like what Disney did, set up auctions, give H-1B workers the freedom to switch jobs immediately to encourage better working conditions and remove the indentured servitude part, bar spouses from working (this is not what the H-1B was intended for, the spouses should go through the same visa scrutiny that other overseas applicants go through and not have this stupid back door to a work visa). It''s tragic in some ways that a moratorium on the H-1B visa would hurt companies like yours that seem to be obeying the law. But this is what happens when abuses get rampant. The price of such systematic abuse is that privileges are taken away as punishment. I just don't see any alternative at this point given the abuses still going on.
This is what confuses me so much, your case sounds legit, but there are so many other companies that clearly abuse the H-1B visa for indentured servitude cheap labor despite qualified Americans. Disney alone showed the very worst abuses in 2015 when they laid off working Americans to replace them with Indian indentured servants at lower salaries, a 100% different case than what your describing. The strict regulations you point out here were clearly not applied in Disney's case, not only were qualified Americans available, they were already working there when Disney moved to replace them with cheap labor, a clear violation of the law. Again here is the NYT article lays it out straight. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/u...lacements.html
And then there are the shenanigans that Cohen and Grigsby tried to pull with fake job ads where there was a clear effort to do the opposite of the careful steps you've been doing, ensure Americans wouldn't get hired-- they say this straight out in the recording!-- and instead hire only slave labor from India and Philippines, that they could treat like dirt, work to death and use and discard while the corrupt execs could buy an extra yacht.
Again to be totally clear, I'm not questioning you here at all because I do know some cases, like you talk about, where the letter and basic principle of the law were followed on H-1B, there was a clear good faith effort to recruit Americans first, wages for the foreign recruits were high (same level as Americans) and there was in general an honest attempt to make sure the jobs were there for Americans. I don't have a problem with this, after all this is what Europe and South American countries like Brazil, Chile and Argentina also do when they hire American tech experts, look for local talent first but then, if not available, bring in talented overseas workers (including Americans and Canadians) who are paid at the same or higher wages. This after all, is how it's supposed to work. Although I still feel like this exposes problems with the American system, esp. with education and training (student loans are so damn high for Americans studying STEM that they're discouraged when good jobs are iffy or outsourced, a chicken and egg problem), and certainly early internships and entry level training should be restricted to Americans to start the career ladder, I get where you're coming from here. One of my own company in Texas faced same issue years ago.
But it seems like for every case like yours where you act in good faith and follow the rules, there are dozens of others where the H-1B is clearly abused and used for cheap labor, while older Americans workers are put out to pasture or younger Americans are kept off the career ladder, unable to get health insurance and unable to get those critical early breaks that build their careers and keep American tech strong. And these cases are documented, Disney is tip of iceberg, there's also been a lot of abuses documented with Microsoft, Oracle, Hewlett Packard, Goldman Sachs and other banks, insurance comapnies, accounting companies. Maybe it's the bigger more powerful companies who can bribe politicians with campaign contributions, that are doing the main abuses? Hard to say, but the solution is relatively easy, demand and closely enforce rules about salary levels, demand a high minimum like $150,000 annual salary which is not unusual for this field if truly recruiting needed overseas talent, include harsher punishments when the law is broken (including prison terms for execs) for abuses like what Disney did, set up auctions, give H-1B workers the freedom to switch jobs immediately to encourage better working conditions and remove the indentured servitude part, bar spouses from working (this is not what the H-1B was intended for, the spouses should go through the same visa scrutiny that other overseas applicants go through and not have this stupid back door to a work visa). It''s tragic in some ways that a moratorium on the H-1B visa would hurt companies like yours that seem to be obeying the law. But this is what happens when abuses get rampant. The price of such systematic abuse is that privileges are taken away as punishment. I just don't see any alternative at this point given the abuses still going on.
I agree with most of it.
Except for the part that spouses should go through the same scrutiny.
We shouldn't stop anyone from working. Right to work is a basic human right.
When awarding H1Bs, the H4EAD count should be taken into consideration.
American average age is increasing.
A day would come when the doors would be wide open to allow lot more people into United States.
In the mean while, we shouldn't be mistreating future Americans.
Another point to note is that the college education is too expensive here.
I don't think that it's wise to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for college.
You can learn everything online nowadays
Always wondered this, at least back when I was more heavily in the business seemed like it was short term gain but long term would bring the company down. They'd bring in these guys from India working for peanuts but then the quality of the coding, engineering and database management would be peanuts too. Critical code riddled with errors, angry customers and clients when core products or software didn't work. So then the company later on had to wind up hiring American contractors or in-house employees to clean up the H-1B workers mess anyway. And this was like, the normal way things happened, not exception. So the company paid twice over, once to hire the H-1B workers, then it didn't work, then they had to hire Americans anyway but **** off lose their customers anyway.
Another reason Trump should reform this mess and he'd gain a huge political windfall in from doing it. Even most of the Democrats I know would vote for Trump, or Republicans allied with him, if he concretely reduced, suspended or shut down the H-1B and the other cheap labor visa programs. Most people aren't political animals and don't pay attention to all the issues in the news and campaigns, but we do pay attention to things that have affect us directly like jobs. All the Independents and most Dems I know are like this, not too partisan, just want to vote for a candidate with good policy, and getting rid of sharply reducing the H-1B would be a big vote-getter in any state!
He cant do that. It isnt in his genes. And he runs a cheap labor program out of his own businesses. I think they are looking into one of the Golf Clubs as also having participated in on site generation of fake green cards.
He cant do that. It isnt in his genes. And he runs a cheap labor program out of his own businesses. I think they are looking into one of the Golf Clubs as also having participated in on site generation of fake green cards.
More and more I'm starting to think this is true, it's only thing that makes sense to explain Trump's weak behavior on the H-1B visa. He has an easy political victory staring right in front of him in form of a moratorium and strong changes to the H-1B, very popular among both parties voters and independents, doesn't need Congress approval, can't be blocked by Democrats, can just sign an Executive Order and work through government administration, he can increase employment for voting Americans by millions (look at labor force participation not U3 unemployment, tens of millions of working-able Americans are out of workforce), he can increase wages for Americans, boost the economy, almost guarantee re-election by cracking down hard on the H-1B visa.
And yet Trump does.. nothing. A gimme political victory if he takes easy and long overdue steps to curb the H-1B, but he sits there like a fool even though there's no excuse for inaction. It's like he wants to lose in 2020, and in the most humiliating way possible with his base staying home, and the way things are looking now, this probably means Trump will be convicted and sent to prison too upon losing in 2020.
Your explanation makes sense. If Trump was so desperate to gain votes from Silicon Valley execs by supporting the H-1B then he's the dumbest politician in a century because they'll hate him anyway and donate to his opponents. No, only thing that makes sense, is Trump himself loves the cheap labor and is incapable of going against it. He probably figures some of the Trump properties could benefit from H-1B cheap labor after he's out of office. Which again is a stupid miscalculation, if Trump fails to shut down the H-1B he'll lose his base in 2020 esp. in the Swing States like Florida, Arizona and Wisconsin where it's a big issue, lose re-election and get sent to prison, losing most of his family properties in the process. Whereas if he grows a spine, shuts down the H-1B he'll keep his base and win Dems and independents, win re-election in 2020, and then his enemies can't touch him, the validation of winning re-election alone would shut down any serious efforts for imprisonment but too, with his base intact, it makes him impossible to target for criminal investigations that look trumped-up even to many Democrats. Trump should maybe start by firing these dumb "advisors" like Kudlow, Bolton, Cohn and esp. Kushner who seem to be telling him to go weak on the H-1B. If there was ever an issue to tell these fools "you're fired!" about, this would be it.
Right now, Indians are at a huge disadvantage.
Any person from rest of the world would get their Green Card in a year and have freedom to do whatever he/she wants.
Indians on the other hand, wouldn't get their Green card in their lifetime.
Heavily favor Indians is a flawed argument.
Since it would be first come first serve.
You will have to wait for the person who applied before you.
Discrimination based on country is called Racism.
It is USA and they make the rules. If India makes similar rules, neither Americans or Bangladeshis can argue about it. Yes, it would be nice to have first come first served basis. But there is no way that countries that have no waiting list because they never reach the 7% threshold would agree to change the rules. Their lobbyists would make sure the congressmen would not agree for the changes.
The options for Indians are for live with the existing rules or to return to India if they can't accept it.
And please stop with throwing words about like racism. This is nothing to do with racism.
It is USA and they make the rules. If India makes similar rules, neither Americans or Bangladeshis can argue about it. Yes, it would be nice to have first come first served basis. But there is no way that countries that have no waiting list because they never reach the 7% threshold would agree to change the rules. Their lobbyists would make sure the congressmen would not agree for the changes.
The options for Indians are for live with the existing rules or to return to India if they can't accept it.
And please stop with throwing words about like racism. This is nothing to do with racism.
I am talking about the Right thing to do.
Doesn't matter if it is USA or India.
We should open up our thinking beyond laws imposed by a country.
And they aren't Indians, they are humans first.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
