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I never said all cultures and minds are "equal" I said different societies value different skills and knowledge bases
And all societies are not equal and you live in the West, where IQ is a valid measurement.
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IQ didn't exist until it was created....same as the wheel lol.
"Lol". That's like stating that the mind didn't exist until it was discovered. Its ridiculously awful logic.
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You and others in the thread seem to be heavily influenced by 19th century European standards (and there is nothing wrong with that)
That's like stating that I am "influenced" by the reality of gravity. I reject your simplistic frame that an objective measurement of intelligence is some type of passing standard.
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and what you consider to be important in regards to "intelligence."
What I consider important is what best functions as the measure of intelligence, as proven by associated achievement in fields that require that raw horsepower (which are most of the fields that form the foundation of our technological, legal, and government infrastructures - if they are to be functional - see low IQ nations where they are not). That measurement is IQ. Though, higher IQ for a group is also associated with lower violence rates.
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I'm not as invested in your view because I don't value your view over other people's POV, that's all.
Yes, I get your view. It comes from the "everything is relative" and "everything can have equal value" camp that I before referenced. I bought into that in my twenties. Its BS.
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I do agree that pattern recognition is an important skill for all people;
While you can train yourself to maximize your personal intellectual potential in that respect, it is not a pure skill because everyone is limited by their intelligence as to how effective you will be at pattern recognition. You cannot train yourself to be Nikola Tesla, for example, no matter how dedicated that you are to developing your "skill". You can't do it because your IQ is lower than was his.
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however, a majority of the tests that are given in America that measure IQ are not primarily based on this skill.
IQ tests, and studies measuring IQ, have long ago been controlled for cultural bias. You can easily find pattern recognition IQ tests online that are correlated to Wechsler scores, for example.
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They also are given in a rather foreign environment, especially for children and there is literature about the fact that children often do poorly on IQ assessments due to the practitioner giving the assessment.
Your non-points have all been litigated here before, as well as in the public sphere ad-infinitum. You are repeating old, invalid arguments that have long ago had their points addressed and controlled for when necessary. The results were always the same.
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IQ assessments also are not routinely done anymore in school settings and most of these discussions are based upon other standardized tests that are more about academic skills rather than IQ.
Speaking from the perspective of someone who administers standardized tests, I can state that you have no idea what you are talking about on a fundamental level.
And all societies are not equal and you live in the West, where IQ is a valid measurement.
"Lol". That's like stating that the mind didn't exist until it was discovered. Its ridiculously awful logic.
That's like stating that I am "influenced" by the reality of gravity. I reject your simplistic frame that an objective measurement of intelligence is some type of passing standard.
What I consider important is what best functions as the measure of intelligence, as proven by associated achievement in fields that require that raw horsepower (which are most of the fields that form the foundation of our technological, legal, and government infrastructures - if they are to be functional - see low IQ nations where they are not). That measurement is IQ. Though, higher IQ for a group is also associated with lower violence rates.
Yes, I get your view. It comes from the "everything is relative" and "everything can have equal value" camp that I before referenced. I bought into that in my twenties. Its BS.
While you can train yourself to maximize your personal intellectual potential in that respect, it is not a pure skill because everyone is limited by their intelligence as to how effective you will be at pattern recognition. You cannot train yourself to be Nikola Tesla, for example, no matter how dedicated that you are to developing your "skill". You can't do it because your IQ is lower than was his.
IQ tests, and studies measuring IQ, have long ago been controlled for cultural bias. You can easily find pattern recognition IQ tests online that are correlated to Wechsler scores, for example.
Your non-points have all been litigated here before, as well as in the public sphere ad-infinitum. You are repeating old, invalid arguments that have long ago had their points addressed and controlled for when necessary. The results were always the same.
Speaking from the perspective of someone who administers standardized tests, I can state that you have no idea what you are talking about on a fundamental level.
Again....on the bold....I never said all societies were equal....
You have a delusional personality it seems to believe that everyone is telling you things are "equal" when they are saying no such thing. Hopefully you are just administering the tests and not a teacher as I'd probably pull my kid out of your class since you lack reading comprehension skills.
I also spoke nothing of being dedicated to "skills" or anything like that. Only that IQ tests are not routinely given anymore to a large swath of American society. Most of you all's fascination with tests are standardized tests and not IQ tests. Standardized tests are not IQ tests no matter what you believe you are administering lol. IQ tests are usually given by a psychologist. Any test you find online is not an actual IQ test (LOL that you stated that in regards to Wechsler as well - any professional will tell you that no online tests are a "real" IQ test. Most people who are assessed for IQ it is done for behavioral/psychological assessment and/or private school admission requirements).
You need to use your intelligence (i.e. memory and pattern recognition skills) and realize that when people don't reference a particular word/term (like equality/equivalence) they are not speak of said word/term.
Nor are they speaking of said word/term. Now what was it you were saying about germs???
That they can recognize patterns...thanks for being grammar police lol. It doesn't negate the fact that germs can recognize and create patterns
Using what, pray tell, as sensors to determine that the patterns exist. Eyeless, earless, nerve-less, brainless one-celled organisms have no possible to to sense, much less recognize, much less create patterns.
Well, I suppose if we dumb-down the curriculum they could.
You've never taught, so you wouldn't understand.
When I taught Intro to International Relations and Intro to US Foreign Policy, some students not only grasped the concepts, they could apply the concepts, make generalizations and draw conclusions.
Those were the "A" students. The "B" students understood the concepts and could apply them, but didn't understand the implications. The "C" students basically memorized the concepts, but could not apply them to save their lives. The "D" and "F" students couldn't understand the concepts at all.
That's all IQ and DNA.
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Originally Posted by residinghere2007
People were being educated and learning things for millenia before IQ was even known.
That's a claim common by low IQ people. IQ still existed, even though it wasn't measured, just like gravity existed, even though it wasn't known, understood or measured.
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Originally Posted by residinghere2007
IQ is only a test that measures what Europeans felt were important in their society in the 19th century. Europeans colonized the world and their views from the 19th century are very prominent today.
Math is important in all societies, as is the ability to read, to comprehend what is read, and to apply what is read, which is what IQ tests measure in part.
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Originally Posted by residinghere2007
IQ test primarily measure verbal and pattern recognition skills.
Pattern recognition is incredibly important for air traffic controllers, pilots, architects, draftsmen and soldiers and many other skills and occupations.
Pattern recognition is the reason why I was regimental, brigade or battalion S-3/S-3 Air Operations, because I could see the battlefield in ways others could not.
That's why so few women are air traffic controllers. Because of DNA and IQ, many women lack the ability to think and see in three dimensions, which is a requirement unless you want planes colliding mid-air.
I suppose it never occurred to you that pattern recognition is also essential for communication and mathematics.
If all all professional practitioners/psychologists are equally trained and adept at giving intelligence tests and evaluating intelligence, then why can the same child have significantly different IQ scores over time? (And again, I am NOT talking about those standardized IQ tests given by school teachers.) As stated in a previous post, my three-year-old adopted son was evaluated as having an IQ of about 75 by two different professionals at different times within a 12-month period, yet he was above grade level in both math and reading by the time he was in the third grade.
If all all professional practitioners/psychologists are equally trained and adept at giving intelligence tests and evaluating intelligence, then why can the same child have significantly different IQ scores over time? (And again, I am NOT talking about those standardized IQ tests given by school teachers.) As stated in a previous post, my three-year-old adopted son was evaluated as having an IQ of about 75 by two different professionals at different times within a 12-month period, yet he was above grade level in both math and reading by the time he was in the third grade.
There is a lot of research about this and how the quality of the psychologist and the environment does have a role in IQ (care given to child, less amount of stress that impacts psychological health of the child, nutrition of the child, lead poisoning or other environmental toxins, etc outside of the actual "nurture" of a child). Even the effort of the child when children take the test is at play as if they see no incentive for the test they will not put forth any effort.
I'm sure the other posters will disregard these things because they are just invested in their beliefs but this actually is a topic that I've read about in regards to academic discussions of IQ.
Also about how people assessed with low IQs like your adopted son can still perform well and even above average academically especially if their environmental conditions improve. I'd personally wonder if your son, when initially tested had been impacted by an environmental toxin or poor nutrition before he came to your home. Also the stress that children endure when living in a poverty stricken environment contributes a chemical reaction in their bodies that can impair cognitive abilities (even the mother when pregnant being stressed - this can impact a child in utero and have life long impacts).
Well, I suppose if we dumb-down the curriculum they could.
You've never taught, so you wouldn't understand.
When I taught Intro to International Relations and Intro to US Foreign Policy, some students not only grasped the concepts, they could apply the concepts, make generalizations and draw conclusions.
Those were the "A" students. The "B" students understood the concepts and could apply them, but didn't understand the implications. The "C" students basically memorized the concepts, but could not apply them to save their lives. The "D" and "F" students couldn't understand the concepts at all.
That's all IQ and DNA.
That's a claim common by low IQ people. IQ still existed, even though it wasn't measured, just like gravity existed, even though it wasn't known, understood or measured.
Math is important in all societies, as is the ability to read, to comprehend what is read, and to apply what is read, which is what IQ tests measure in part.
Pattern recognition is incredibly important for air traffic controllers, pilots, architects, draftsmen and soldiers and many other skills and occupations.
Pattern recognition is the reason why I was regimental, brigade or battalion S-3/S-3 Air Operations, because I could see the battlefield in ways others could not.
That's why so few women are air traffic controllers. Because of DNA and IQ, many women lack the ability to think and see in three dimensions, which is a requirement unless you want planes colliding mid-air.
I suppose it never occurred to you that pattern recognition is also essential for communication and mathematics.
On the bold - they can it depends on what you view as "retarded." In the past many people felt that individuals who were on the autism spectrum or other more "savant" sorts of behaviors were "retarded" in the 20th century.
LOL at you comparing IQ to "gravity" something that is a natural force that is clearly defined and can be easily measured. IQ is a test that people made up - it is not any sort of energy or force or gas or any other part of physical science...... FWIW intelligence - the ability to learn, I agree has always been around. However, an intelligence quotient (IQ) is made up and depends on what skills the test is teaching.
Nothing you mentioned about math negates what I stated. And nothing you mentioned about pattern recognition negates what I stated. So what is your point based on your response to me?
Are you saying that so-called "retarded" people cannot rise to great heights in their lives....? (I'd say it depends on who you consider to be "retarded").
Are you saying that IQ tests don't primarily measure verbal and pattern recognition skills?
From what you wrote seems you only disagree with the first. However, due to the fact that IQ tests aren't readily given, we have no accurate basis for the IQ definition of "retarded" (IQ 75 and below) amongst people with PhDs today. I'm sure you can find something about IQ of PhDs from 30-50 years ago, but they wouldn't be a good sample for today's population. Because I honestly do agree with a lot of people on this forum about the fact that the quality of higher education in this country has decreased. IMO it is much easier today to get a PhD than it used to be. You can get a PhD online. I know quite a few people who have who I don't consider all that bright (and in my mind someone "not too bright" is probably someone you'd consider mildly retarded) who have PhDs.
Will also note that it is interesting to me that people often overlook other factors in regards to outcomes around here and chose to focus solely on "intelligence."
IQ score predicted life outcomes, including academic performance in adolescence and criminal convictions, employment, and years of education in early adulthood. After adjusting for the influence of test motivation, however, the predictive validity of intelligence for life outcomes was significantly diminished, particularly for nonacademic outcomes. Collectively, our findings suggest that, under low-stakes research conditions, some individuals try harder than others, and, in this context, test motivation can act as a third-variable confound that inflates estimates of the predictive validity of intelligence for life outcomes.
I think many of you overlook the value of someone who has a competitive and motivated attitude towards IQ or any sort of tests/tasks in the first place. I've read many works similar to this one and many of the ones you all like to speak about as well on the subject.
More recent studies on IQ today (which many of you overlook because you focus on Bell Curve and research based on IQ studies done in the 1990s and before) focus on motivation and incentives and how those impact IQ scores. A large amount of studies about this do show that when offered an incentive, children who scored low initially, do better with the incentive. This is something, which this piece states does show that there are other items outside of actual "intelligence" that are factors in the outcomes of one's life. The ability to focus, competitiveness, and motivation are all factors. Those who were more motivated to do well on the first go round have better outcomes in life due in part to their intelligence in relation to cognitive ability ALONG with other factors such as their drive/motivation, determination, and resilience. When testing children, this has to do as well with their comfort level when they are assessed - I've mentioned before on the forum that I do remember being tested when I was 3 in Head Start. The psychologists who tested me was a teacher as well in a small class size - 5 children. I knew both teachers pretty well and was comfortable with them and even remember their names and fun things we did in that class. I do feel that due to me being comfortable with them and them being kind and respectful to me - that I wanted to show them how good of a job I'd do at their tests/games. I did very well as a result. Throughout my life and to this day, I am a pretty highly motivated person as well, that is just my personality - and FWIW my dad who is a high school drop out - he is also a highly motivated individual and he achieves pretty much any goal he sets for himself. I do believe there are genetic heritable traits associated with our personalities and cognitive abilities. But there are other factors in people's lives that impact what you all consider things that IQ measure. IQ doesn't necessarily measure determination or motivation or resilience - things that have been much more heavily studied since the 1990s and that have been shown to be just as impactful on life outcomes versus IQ.
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