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I said nothing about DNA or inferiority. Stick it with your false allegations. Those Latin American countries are dangerous because of the PEOPLE there. It's not the geography or geology of Honduras that is killing Hondurans, it's Honduran people. And those people get away with it because the system is ineffictive and CORRUPT. No amount of foreign aid is going to change that. It will require changes to the culture of corruption. Note what AMLO is finally trying to do in Mexico after decades of leaders turned a blind eye to it if not used it to advantage.
Peoples of about any culture have the capacity to kill - either in fear or for personal gain or for an ideology. No need for a history lecture. One of the factors that have been shown to reduce violence are political processes like democracy and humanitarian movements towards tolerance. Generally speaking, countries highly stratified by class and by economics are less safe than those that are more homogenous. Honduras is more dangerous than the United States. The United States tends to have more violent crime than Europe.
Culture does have a powerful impact on behavior. Cultures of poverty within the United States help fuel our own violence. These have not been easily eradicated. Conversely, immigrants into an area (whether into the United States or within US regions) generally become subsumed into its culture relatively quickly, certainly within a generation or so. This explains the pervasive political differences that link to US geographical areas. Many who move to conservative areas adopt those values; those who move to more liberal parts of the country come to mirror those who live around them. Sure, some factors like perceived discrimination or poverty can slow enculturation. And I would not discount the impact of education where those of the educated upper classes adapt more quickly to a relatively affluent country.
Still, how can you write about the "ineffective and corrupt" Honduran political structure - a structure that has devastated and impoverished the country - with no acknowledgment of its origins or the role that US capitalism has played. Again, no need for a history lecture. Suffice to say the links between US capitalism and conservative politics within Central America with decades of US political and military involvement have been devastating. In recent decades, the resulting instability has allowed for the again US-fostered drug trade to flourish with the countryside at times lawless and in virtual ruin in some locales. No surprise that some flee for the US border.
Like you I like to talk to folks. Tonight I ended up chatting with a man in his early-50s maybe older who was vacating a restaurant booth that I was about to claim. Lives in South Florida. Latino, Cuban I'd guess. Like many such talks, it started with the weather. He's visiting "up north", having a tough time with the cold snap. We've just returned from a short trip made for personal reasons to the Caribbean.
The talk turned to Nicaragua and his hatred of socialism. Turns out that he was stationed on a US military base in Honduras - for some time, long enough for him to move extensively throughout the region. He knew I would pick up on the potential politics of his former "job." Too bad, I didn't start asking directly about the contras and so on.
Anyhow, the coincidence between that encounter tonight and your post struck.
Last edited by EveryLady; 01-23-2019 at 09:07 PM..
American success didn't "just happen" nor was it given. Success is the product of the system and culture and people. Everyone wants the same success but they don't want to put in the effort to get it. They despise the American way but want the kind of life the American way can offer. It's those who stayed behind that should be recognised.
Some of the countries I've been in the last 5 years, 3-5x for some of them, are Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala, and Belize. Will be in Costa Rica in a few weeks.
No need to gang up on you for the "effort" comment that was unfortunate. But you interest me. How can you spend time in Central America without coming to appreciate the individual effort made to live decent lives? Perhaps you were referring the impact of the "culture" - that pesky economic and political dysfunction fostered, at least in part, by the United States but which you personalized to the individual and by confusing the two left yourself open to various accusations.
The problem is that we, too, are a product of our culture - a democratic one that was fostered centuries before in Britain. No doubt that completely blinds some to that fact that stable democracies are not easy to come by. This has little to do with ethnic background or even societal education level. Political coups and military juntas also play a big role in the politics of an Argentina and Chile, with resulting dysfunction and corruption.
Sure various movements have attempted to empower the poor of Central America, but the picture is far more complicated than what you wrote. This is what comes across like an uninformed stereotype. And sure leftwing movements should not be absolved - for they are far from pure. We walked into a FSLN center in Nicaragua that that upon reflection was preparing to forcefully counter expected unrest from the upcoming constitutional and safety net changes. It was not a normal community center.
Like you, I've developed an interest in Central America with two trips this year - Nicaragua (right before the destabilization) then Panama. Earlier ... Belize and Guatemala. In past decades, I've ended up in areas that were profoundly dangerous so I've little hesitation to go where few tourists do. Dysfunction is to be found.
The power of the United States to impact Central America - for better or worse - remains so American interest often is warmly received. We were quickly ushered out of the FSLN center but, in contrast, a show of interest led to an introduction to the new Minister of Government in Panama. There was little time for any offsite activities in last week's quick trip, but there was an half-hour to kill on the way to the airport that allowed for a stop at the local parish municipal center. The mayor met us and summoned his British-educated (masters in international affairs) assistant. Many find that an American who wants to listen is worth their time.
That listening may surprise. There was something odd in the speech of a young guide (ziplining). It wasn't just that he spoke English well or knew enough botany to keep up his tourist job. It was the vocabulary. Words that few Americans know unless perhaps learned for the SATs. How? No educational opportunities for him, not in Nicaragua for he came from a poor family. Like many he listened to YouTube videos, but ones not for mere entertainment and then looked up every unknown word in a dictionary. This was only for personal intellectual development. There's no economic opportunity. This young man had little hope but still he studied.
He came to mind when you wrote that "they don't want to put in the effort."
Build a wall smack in the middle of a river that twists and turns extensively for over 1000 miles? You got to be kidding! Do you have any idea how logistically ridiculous that project would be?
Quote:
Originally Posted by phma
Look at what China did with the Three Gorges Dam. Small minds can't think big.
If we can do the Panama Canal we can handle this much smaller task.
Be real !!! You didn't really want an answer. You just wanted everyone to give up on the wall.
Do you have any idea how much of the Chinese countryside was flooded and numbers of people displaced with the Three Gorges Dam? The authoritarian Chinese government was able to get away with it. Our US government not so much. Most of the eminent domain lawsuits from a decade ago remain in the courts.
No one but no one is proposing to run a wall down middle of the Rio Grande - so any theoretical ability to do so or build a wall more generally is not the issue. This is not an engineering problem (although there are challenges) but a legal and political one.
This is what I have always thought should happen, viz a viz, a wall.
a) stop talking about a wall, and just talk about border security.
b) Trump and Pelosi need to come to an understanding of what it is worth, in total dollars, to stop illegal immigration through ALL our ports and borders.
c) Allocate that amount of money and give it to CBP d) Let them figure out how to spend it: a wall, manpower, technology, drones, etc. e) Do what all businesses do, which is to tie the money they receive to performance metrics. If CBP spends all the money on a wall and it doesn't have an appreciable effect, then a few CBP managers lose their jobs. Just like business - you are held accountable.
I think the wall is dumb but I am willing to defer to the guys responsible for border security. They are the experts. Just like climate change - I defer to the scientists as they are the experts, not me. Neither Trump nor Pelosi is an expert on walls, so defer to the experts. But CBP is then on the hook to spend it the most efficient way possible.
You make too much sense.
That was the intent of the subsequent amendment to the Secure Fence Act of 2006, which then resulted in less wall footage being built. Homeland Security (containing CBP) was provided with the authority to determine the most effective process.
Then along came Trump and his big beautiful wall. I'd bet my bootie that Democrats would no longer trust Trump to allow Homeland Security to figure out how to spend it. The man does have a tendency to fire those who say No to him.
Still, how can you write about the "ineffective and corrupt" Honduran political structure - a structure that has devastated and impoverished the country - with no acknowledgment of its origins or the role that US capitalism has played. Again, no need for a history lecture. Suffice to say the links between US capitalism and conservative politics within Central America with decades of US political and military involvement have been devastating. In recent decades, the resulting instability has allowed for the again US-fostered drug trade to flourish with the countryside at times lawless and in virtual ruin in some locales. No surprise that some flee for the US border.
I think the role is vastly overstated. Given a choice between two parties or two leaders, we may have a preference but the governments there were not "installed" by or a puppet of the US. They don't implement our laws or our principles. We have about as much control over them as we did over Saddam. We certainly aren't propping up the government of Venezuela so if US influence is what's keeping countries down then they should be prosperous. We're just lucky they are another 3000 miles further away. We haven't been installing governments in Mexico, either.
It really is possible for different countries to have their own politics and power struggles independently of the US. We didn't create the corrupt and oppressive rulers. They were already there fighting each other for power. We may see one as more sensible to do business with and give them our support, but it doesn't change the reality that if we didn't and the other guy won he would be just as corrupt and oppressive, and the country would be in the same mess.
Anyway, what is the solution? Or is there even a possible solution?
No need to gang up on you for the "effort" comment that was unfortunate. But you interest me. How can you spend time in Central America without coming to appreciate the individual effort made to live decent lives? Perhaps you were referring the impact of the "culture" - that pesky economic and political dysfunction fostered, at least in part, by the United States but which you personalized to the individual and by confusing the two left yourself open to various accusations.
The problem is that we, too, are a product of our culture - a democratic one that was fostered centuries before in Britain. No doubt that completely blinds some to that fact that stable democracies are not easy to come by. This has little to do with ethnic background or even societal education level. Political coups and military juntas also play a big role in the politics of an Argentina and Chile, with resulting dysfunction and corruption.
Sure various movements have attempted to empower the poor of Central America, but the picture is far more complicated than what you wrote. This is what comes across like an uninformed stereotype. And sure leftwing movements should not be absolved - for they are far from pure. We walked into a FSLN center in Nicaragua that that upon reflection was preparing to forcefully counter expected unrest from the upcoming constitutional and safety net changes. It was not a normal community center.
Like you, I've developed an interest in Central America with two trips this year - Nicaragua (right before the destabilization) then Panama. Earlier ... Belize and Guatemala. In past decades, I've ended up in areas that were profoundly dangerous so I've little hesitation to go where few tourists do. Dysfunction is to be found.
The power of the United States to impact Central America - for better or worse - remains so American interest often is warmly received. We were quickly ushered out of the FSLN center but, in contrast, a show of interest led to an introduction to the new Minister of Government in Panama. There was little time for any offsite activities in last week's quick trip, but there was an half-hour to kill on the way to the airport that allowed for a stop at the local parish municipal center. The mayor met us and summoned his British-educated (masters in international affairs) assistant. Many find that an American who wants to listen is worth their time.
That listening may surprise. There was something odd in the speech of a young guide (ziplining). It wasn't just that he spoke English well or knew enough botany to keep up his tourist job. It was the vocabulary. Words that few Americans know unless perhaps learned for the SATs. How? No educational opportunities for him, not in Nicaragua for he came from a poor family. Like many he listened to YouTube videos, but ones not for mere entertainment and then looked up every unknown word in a dictionary. This was only for personal intellectual development. There's no economic opportunity. This young man had little hope but still he studied.
He came to mind when you wrote that "they don't want to put in the effort."
I was never talking about any individual, where did I say anything other than system and culture? And I appreciate the effort to live decent lives, most especially those who stay and try to be a part of the solution. On an individual basis, I've had closer interaction with Latin Americas than most. Probably 9500 of the 10,000 in the caravans would make a fine neighbor but what works on an individual basis does not work on a macro scale. Shall we absorb the whole populations of the unstable Central American countries? What is the solution for the 99% that remain behind?
I haven't been to Nicaragua. I'd been thinking maybe I'll get a chance to in a few weeks. Not sure with the renewed crackdown on the media. That's never a good sign.
I think the role is vastly overstated. Given a choice between two parties or two leaders, we may have a preference but the governments there were not "installed" by or a puppet of the US. They don't implement our laws or our principles. We have about as much control over them as we did over Saddam. We certainly aren't propping up the government of Venezuela so if US influence is what's keeping countries down then they should be prosperous. We're just lucky they are another 3000 miles further away. We haven't been installing governments in Mexico, either.
It really is possible for different countries to have their own politics and power struggles independently of the US. We didn't create the corrupt and oppressive rulers. They were already there fighting each other for power. We may see one as more sensible to do business with and give them our support, but it doesn't change the reality that if we didn't and the other guy won he would be just as corrupt and oppressive, and the country would be in the same mess.
Some would differ with what you wrote but tonight it will not be me. Even if the US had a certain role in past dysfunction there's no problem with focusing on the situation as it exists today. That includes working with not steamrolling over governments.
And, hey, even here, I would not totally discredit the "positive" impact of a big bad Trump and his threats to close the US border. How functional, though, is that approach in the longterm for resolving every US diplomatic issue?
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceangaia
Anyway, what is the solution? Or is there even a possible solution?
A "solution"? Of course not in the absolute - and you know that, of course. Language, though, is important for it conveys tone.
The reality is that there will always be a certain bleeding into an affluent country sharing a border or close to poverty-stricken countries. Folks seeing better lives will come. The question becomes the number that will be tolerated and the costs (political, moral, economic, societal, legal) that will be expended.
What is striking about many posts is the outrage some feel that attempt to find better lives. Sure I get the illegality. No issue that the US should "defend" its borders with the concurrent right to allow or disallow entry. But that is a position held without outrage.
Trump took the outrage of some and used it to politicize border security. What should be a data-driven process become something both ugly and politically chaotic.
Is it not ironic that we're becoming in some small part more like the governments that illegal migrants flee from.
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