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We are having trouble because all the isms go out the window when we get down to either...
A. It's a violation of the NAP
B. It's not a violation of the NAP
Jews were integral in slaughtering Jews. Jews were integral in saving Jews.
Judaism was meaningless in deciding which side you were on....obviously. You either refuse to initiate force or embrace using force.
All must choose.
It is not just the state that forces us to choose. It is culture itself. It is the neural wiring of our brain that leads us to an in-group out-group analysis.
Violence or aggression is present in multiple forms with violations of cultural dictates potentially life-threatening (even if not physically).
I tend to think we choose or rather are placed into the culture that then chooses for us.
Is is moral for the individual to not act against their conscience? Absolutely, without a doubt. Are there absolute wrongs. Again, yes.
The concept that there is an individual separate from the Gods probably originated with the Greeks then found its full expression in Judaism.
Still, this individualism is a very new idea within our human psyche. One not well expressed.
Do not expect too much of it. You'll only be disappointed. No doubt you already are!
I shared the antisemitism self-checklist that appeared in my newsfeed because I found it helpful (even though it was poorly written, in my opinion). I also find the ensuing discussion to be educational. Having a checklist helped me in evaluating my own state of mind. I was not raised around Jewish people, so I was ignorant of Judaism and antisemitism until I was almost 30.
My opinion is that antisemitism isn't necessarily from a place of evil, but it most certainly can be, as we have seen in the past and present.
Sometimes it's just due to ignorance.
As for the poorly edited list, here is my edited version of it. Feel free to comment.
You might be anti-Semitic if:
(1) You believe that the Holocaust never happened.
(2) You think that a Jewish conspiracy controls the media, international finance, or politics.
(3) Your defense, when questioned about antisemitic comments, is “Jews are not the only Semites, so I’m not an antisemite” or “Jews are not a race, so I’m not a racist.”
(4) You bring up crimes committed against the Palestinian people in discussions about crimes against Jews, antisemitism, or the Holocaust.
(5) You believe that Jews are guilty of the crimes and human rights violations of the State of Israel and that they have an obligation to actively condemn the actions of the State of Israel.
(6) You think it's acceptable to use the word "Jew" as an adjective or a verb (like "Jew money" or "He Jewed me down twenty dollars").
I am a flawed human, but I strive to judge each person on their own merits, by their own actions, and by their own words. I think most people do too.
So, Jews historically have a penchant for haggling for the lowest possible price, and to point out that historical fact is "anti-Semitism?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel976
The fact that you even think that Jews have "a penchant for haggling for the lowest possible price" reveals your antisemitism.
How would it be if I were to say that "blacks have a special skill for being lazy"? That's not a racist attitude?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AguaDulce
I am a flawed human, but I strive to judge each person on their own merits, by their own actions, and by their own words. I think most people do too.
My own view is that Mircea's statement isn't antisemitic in and of itself but is on very thin ice. Agua captures it perfectly. There is a moral obligation (if you believe ethnic/racial discrimination is wrong) to treat people as individuals. "I think Jews historically haggled for the lowest price" is in and of itself okayish (regardless of whether or not it's factually accurate), but it's both a red flag that the person saying it is more likely than the average person to hold antisemitic views and a very short jump to "and that's why I'm not going to bother trying to sell my car to [Jewish dude] Bob" or "and that's why I'm hiring Bob to lead my purchasing department" both of which are very much not okay.
My own view is that Mircea's statement isn't antisemitic in and of itself but is on very thin ice. Agua captures it perfectly. There is a moral obligation (if you believe ethnic/racial discrimination is wrong) to treat people as individuals. "I think Jews historically haggled for the lowest price" is in and of itself okayish (regardless of whether or not it's factually accurate), but it's both a red flag that the person saying it is more likely than the average person to hold antisemitic views and a very short jump to "and that's why I'm not going to bother trying to sell my car to [Jewish dude] Bob" or "and that's why I'm hiring Bob to lead my purchasing department" both of which are very much not okay.
We should treat people as individuals but we tend not to. There is a neurobiological tendency to generalize. We all agree that overgeneralization is not optimal and may lead to injustice. But under-generalization may have been equally problematic. Categorizing is neurologically efficient. It saved that caveman a time-consuming process of evaluating various input then coming to some conclusion before deciding whether or not to flee.
It is not just the state that forces us to choose. It is culture itself. It is the neural wiring of our brain that leads us to an in-group out-group analysis.
Violence or aggression is present in multiple forms with violations of cultural dictates potentially life-threatening (even if not physically).
I tend to think we choose or rather are placed into the culture that then chooses for us.
Is is moral for the individual to not act against their conscience? Absolutely, without a doubt. Are there absolute wrongs. Again, yes.
The concept that there is an individual separate from the Gods probably originated with the Greeks then found its full expression in Judaism.
Still, this individualism is a very new idea within our human psyche. One not well expressed.
Do not expect too much of it. You'll only be disappointed. No doubt you already are!
RE BOLD: Damn straight. G-Damn straight.
But that's why I pound it continuously in here. If I can figure it out...any one can. To suggest otherwise enrages me. It would suggest that I'm somehow "more advanced" than the vast majority of folks. And that's nonsense. I'm nobody. I would love to tell you I got to this point due to some great intellectual prowess on my part or perhaps some supreme morality was bestowed upon me.
I'm just a poor minority kid from the ghetto. That was my culture. On a good day...average intelligence. I simply couldn't live with the cognitive dissonance any longer. Exhaustion. That's how I got here. Pure exhaustion.
And the statists only exhaust me more!
I'm a glutton for punishment I suppose.
And the vast majority of people are anarchists...even if they don't know it. Catgirl is perhaps the most thoughtful, kindest person on this board. Very admirable cuz I'm neither of those things.
Also a statist though. That don't jive. There's a separation inside the brain. I wish I knew how to bridge the gap...get the consistency instilled.
Still haven't figured it out yet. I blame my government schooling.
We should treat people as individuals but we tend not to. There is a neurobiological tendency to generalize. We all agree that overgeneralization is not optimal and may lead to injustice. But under-generalization may have been equally problematic. Categorizing is neurologically efficient. It saved that caveman a time-consuming process of evaluating various input then coming to some conclusion before deciding whether or not to flee.
Sure. It's also that exact mismatch between what people should do and tend to do that creates a moral issue. When they're aligned it's just the way things (thankfully) are.
What do you mean judge people by their actions? By what standard can you judge them? What is good? What is truth? What is righteous? What is just?
The golden rule. It is flawed, but it the most widely accepted human guideline regarding behavior towards others, embraced by nearly all faiths and cultures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz
You can beat your wife and be a good Muslim. And you can be a usurer and be a good Jew.
What do you mean judge people by their actions? By what standard can you judge them? What is good? What is truth? What is righteous? What is just?
Do Jews believe the same truths as Christians?
Declaring that you judge people by their own merits means nothing if your judging by the wrong criteria.
You can beat your wife and be a good Muslim. And you can be a usurer and be a good Jew.
I shudder to think what connection this ^^^ has to your video (only got through some of it) but okay fine this cannot be denied.
Judaism places great emphasis on the law beginning with the Law of Moses and continuing with the rabbinical interpretation, the rise of Jewish civil law. Christian ethics may be based on the Bible but Christianity resulted in definitions of morality and right and wrong behavior that were more individual and relative to the situation.
So, yes, the resulting cultural miscommunication probably played a role in, for example, strife between Jewish merchants and some of the Polish customers in the pre-ww2 Poland resulting in various accusations about Jewish mercantile practices.
Your point? There are no absolutes here. There are tensions in modern society that require us to balance or adapt to the traditions of others. You figure it out. Humans have big brains.
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