Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
...States' rights might be plausible on the surface. However, if you chip away, it isn't nearly that plausible. The South was in favor of states' rights, as it applied to them and them only. If states like Ohio or Michigan decided "these "runaways" aren't runaways anymore, they're free men in our states", the South would have a problem. This is why the Fugitive Slave Act was heavily supported by the South. The South wanted its slave economy protected. Its calls for "states rights" rang hollow when it came to free states protected those slaves who ran away. Yes, states' rights was part of it, but as it applied to the protection of the slave economy.
The lying and use of the Lost Cause is like saving face because of the feeling of "no non-southerners will besmirch us". And I can see where there is an element of "cutting off the nose to spite the face". The fear of being besmirched has allowed many people to lie to themselves. Those Confederate statues and Confederate flags should go into museums as a teachable moment. "The lesson should be this: This is where we went wrong. Those are the mistakes that we made back then. We have since learned better and we're doing better". Being honest with one's self and teaching others.
The States' rights argument is hogwash, completely indefensible based on history, & supported by primary source documents. Agree with all of your supporting arguments here as well.
Also indefensible is the false equivalency comparing the Confederacy to the American Revolution. One of the concepts related to our Revolution is 'taxation without representation'. The Slaver States insisted on the three-fifths Compromise. It wasn't like enslaved people got two-fifths of a vote. The fact remains the Confederates were fighting for a country in which a universal right to race-based enslavement was one of the most entrenched laws of the land.
This video from Vox started out with an old textbook. I'm glad they did that. The first part of that textbook starts out with a textbook about the History of Georgia. It was printed in 1964. The textbook framed slavery in a very dishonest way. It framed it from the perspective of "slaves were happy" or "slavery wasn't a bad thing".
The video goes on to say that the Lost Cause had these tenets.
1) The Confederate cause was a heroic one.
2) Slavery was a benevolent institution
3) Slavery wasn't the root cause of the war.
One of the most disgusting ways the Lost Cause lie was perpetuated was through school textbooks. All the more fitting that the Vox video showed a textbook from 1964.
Many years ago I went to Kennesaw State University. Judge Glenda Hatchett (from the show Judge Hatchett) came to KSU as a guest speaker. She was born and raised in Atlanta. She mentioned that as a little girl, her school got the hand-me-down books from White schools. Basically, she got alot of old, often out of date textbooks. This made me wonder what Black kids in those days were exposed to in terms of education. I do notice that a majority of Black people don't buy into the Lost Cause myth. If the idea was to get Blacks to buy into it, it didn't work. I most certainly don't think that was the idea.
The States' rights argument is hogwash, completely indefensible based on history, & supported by primary source documents. Agree with all of your supporting arguments here as well.
Also indefensible is the false equivalency comparing the Confederacy to the American Revolution. One of the concepts related to our Revolution is 'taxation without representation'. The Slaver States insisted on the three-fifths Compromise. It wasn't like enslaved people got two-fifths of a vote. The fact remains the Confederates were fighting for a country in which a universal right to race-based enslavement was one of the most entrenched laws of the land.
History matters. History is relevant here.
It goes back to what I mentioned before. The South only supported it when it worked in their favor. The Confederate states weren't really for states' rights. They were for their own cause.
Comparing the Confederate cause to the American Revolution is incredibly stupid. It is very dishonest. And false equivalency in this case is just gaslighting.
Thanks. Appreciated the video. It's short, gets to the several points, accurate, based on primary sourced facts, & presented without drama ~ 'just the facts' minus the drama.
Also agree from your earlier post when you stated:
Quote:
One of the most disgusting ways the Lost Cause lie was perpetuated was through school textbooks. All the more fitting that the Vox video showed a textbook from 1964.
It is disgusting but that's the way of most propaganda. Agree it's more disgusting to peddle propaganda to children however ... as discussed likely way upthread by now ... these folks are shameless & cowardly.
Thanks. Appreciated the video. It's short, gets to the several points, accurate, based on primary sourced facts, & presented without drama ~ 'just the facts' minus the drama.
Also agree from your earlier post when you stated:
It is disgusting but that's the way of most propaganda. Agree it's more disgusting to peddle propaganda to children however ... as discussed likely way upthread by now ... these folks are shameless & cowardly.
Glad I could finally get it to you. More people need to know about what was being put into the textbooks. I knew that the Lost Cause myth was being perpetuated through monuments and the veneration of the Confederate flag. What did get to me was the amount of that crap that went into textbooks.
The closest comparison today is what gets put into some history textbooks in Japan. In Japan's textbooks, Japan often gets portrayed as the victim. It is never admitted that Japanese soldiers committed so many atrocities during World War 2. Rape of Nanjing is one of them. And this stuff wasn't clandestine. This stuff can be found out as simply as typing in "rape of nanjing". History textbooks in Japanese schools deny this kind of stuff. Saying anything against Japanese soldiers from WWII is considered the same as saying something against Japan. And there is a video about that too. Kind of fitting that the channel's name is called "Knowing Better".
I see the same denialism. There are some differences though. In Japan, they can get away with it because Japan is 98.5% Japanese. Japan is a homogenous society that is able to do things like perpetuate the denial of its role during WWII. Few people will question it in Japan because there is hardly anyone to question it. The southern states, on the other hand, are part of the USA. There are plenty of people to challenge the "Lost Cause" lie(not myth, lie). Even fellow southerners, Black and White, will challenge it these days. There have been a few White southerners on this thread who came out to challenge the Lost Cause lie. The lie persists, but nowadays, you can't just put that crap in textbooks. Instead, it gets perpetuated through t-shirts, through flying the Confederate flag.
I mentioned Dixie Outfitters in another post. I will make a short post about it, and save the rest for responding to your other post. Dixie Outfitters is basically a last bid at perpetuating the Lost Cause lie.
Glad I could finally get it to you. More people need to know about what was being put into the textbooks. I knew that the Lost Cause myth was being perpetuated through monuments and the veneration of the Confederate flag. What did get to me was the amount of that crap that went into textbooks.
The closest comparison today is what gets put into some history textbooks in Japan. In Japan's textbooks, Japan often gets portrayed as the victim. It is never admitted that Japanese soldiers committed so many atrocities during World War 2. Rape of Nanjing is one of them. And this stuff wasn't clandestine. This stuff can be found out as simply as typing in "rape of nanjing". History textbooks in Japanese schools deny this kind of stuff. Saying anything against Japanese soldiers from WWII is considered the same as saying something against Japan. And there is a video about that too. Kind of fitting that the channel's name is called "Knowing Better".
I see the same denialism. There are some differences though. In Japan, they can get away with it because Japan is 98.5% Japanese. Japan is a homogenous society that is able to do things like perpetuate the denial of its role during WWII. Few people will question it in Japan because there is hardly anyone to question it. The southern states, on the other hand, are part of the USA. There are plenty of people to challenge the "Lost Cause" lie(not myth, lie). Even fellow southerners, Black and White, will challenge it these days. There have been a few White southerners on this thread who came out to challenge the Lost Cause lie. The lie persists, but nowadays, you can't just put that crap in textbooks. Instead, it gets perpetuated through t-shirts, through flying the Confederate flag.
I mentioned Dixie Outfitters in another post. I will make a short post about it, and save the rest for responding to your other post. Dixie Outfitters is basically a last bid at perpetuating the Lost Cause lie.
Awaiting more info about Dixie Outfitters as this Yankee is almost entirely unfamiliar.
Just thought I'd place this link here:
Why Calling Slaves 'Workers' Is More Than An Editing Error
Both the publisher and Texas officials have agreed that the caption was inappropriate. But it's not clear if or how much the adoption process for new textbooks will change.
In the past year, Texas textbooks have been criticized for listing Moses as a Founding Father and for downplaying slavery as a cause of the Civil War. Those issues stemmed from the learning standards that the Texas State Board of Education sets to guide publishers.
The Propaganda-ists are still busy at work, deceiving the unaware & unwary. Although it's good to know that they're not fooling everyone - this particular piece of disinformation & attempt at indoctrination was picked up by a 15 year-old.
Thanks for recommending an interesting piece. I can definitely relate to the author's desire to understand; the subtitle reads: A Yankee tries very hard to understand the South's lingering fixation with the Confederacy. I felt that way too when I lived in a former Confederate state.
After reading, can also relate to its title: Dixie Outfitters is still fighting the Civil War. I had never been to one of their stores, or been aware of their online web presence.
This is the part I find most challenging to understand. When the author is discussing a South Carolina case Hardwick v. Heyward with the founder & CEO of Dixie Outfitters, Dewey Barber. The case was about school bans on Confederate flag apparel, & had been decided by the Fourth Circuit court in favor of the South Carolina high school. Mr. Barber was fuming about the court's decision:
This is the part this Yankee relates to the most when it comes to attempting to understand, it's what the author explains about this exchange:
It's the cognitive dissonance that Mr. Barber attempts to reconcile with his denial-ism & his apparent insistence on the 'holiness of the Confederate martyrs'. It presents as a dis-ease where the person doesn't want to get better.
I agree with you that the whole thing is just plain sad.
The other thing about the "I hunt black and tans" bumper stickers was just plain bizarre.
After reading the article, I got the feeling that the founder of Dixie Outfitters was trying to deflect any kind of responsibilty in terms of the role of the Confederacy. Black Confederates were mentioned by someone else. However, I could tell it was being mentioned for the purpose of diverting attention from the Confederate cause of keeping slavery intact in the South. Barber, the founder of Dixie Outfitters, went into the same denialism and told some lies. I have a feeling that Barber is someone not worth debating with. He doesn't want to do better. You could take all kinds of evidence and show it to Barber, and he would just get even more defensive about it.
The person who wrote the article was trying to figure things out. He is coming from the perspective of a northerner trying to understand things. You were trying to understand things as a northerner living in the former Confederate state. For you, it is about being an outsider looking in.
In my case, it isn't about being the "outsider looking in". It's about being the descendant of slaves. It's about understanding what the Confederate cause is about and knowing that my it was about enslaving my ancestors. I can't look at it any other way. For that reason, it's not reasonable to venerate symbols of the Confederacy, especially in the post-Civil Rights era. The writer may not be offended. The writer's feelings have likely gone from offense to pity. And if that's true, I get where it comes from. Textbooks used to parrot the Lost Cause lie. Kids were being fed this crap in school. However, using ignorance as an excuse cannot stand much longer. The truth is out there, and the Lost Cause wasn't perpetuated in my high school textbooks during the early 2000s. My history teacher wasn't saying "slavery had nothing to do with it". He did try to tread lightly on the subject. I figure that if kids are being taught better, there is no excuse.
In short, when you would have likely been the victim, you can't exercise much pity or benefit of the doubt.
As for Barber, I think his company is a last gasp. It is a last ditch effort to keep the Lost Cause lie going. With monuments being taken down in a few places, and the Lost Cause being disavowed in many textbooks, and many academics calling BS on the Lost Cause, Dixie Outfitters serves as one of the last outlets for it.
The Propaganda-ists are still busy at work, deceiving the unaware & unwary. Although it's good to know that they're not fooling everyone - this particular piece of disinformation & attempt at indoctrination was picked up by a 15 year-old.
I just wrote the post for it. As soon as I can read more (my computer doesn't seem to like Salon very much), I will put more.
Calling slaves "workers" is just another way to sanitize the issue. Glad I'm not in school anymore. And in Texas. I know Texas has its own issues, and yes it was a slave state. However, I expect that Texas would at least know better. And this was in Pearland, one of the wealthier parts of the Houston area, one of the largest metropolitan areas in the USA. The NASA program has a strong presence in Houston. Indoor baseball was invented in Houston (fittingly called the Astrodome). I'm thinking the Houston area would know better than to put "workers" in history textbooks when describing slaves. I'm hoping this was just Pearland (me and hot, humid weather don't get along) and not some place like Fort Worth, El Paso, or Dallas. I've considered returning to Texas to live (I lived in Ft. Worth for a time), among other places.
Those trying to downplay slavery aren't fooling anyone. They're just showing themselves to be liars. The truth isn't difficult to find.
Dixie Outfitters is still fighting the Civil War. I had never been to one of their stores, or been aware of their online web presence.
This is the part I find most challenging to understand. When the author is discussing a South Carolina case Hardwick v. Heyward with the founder & CEO of Dixie Outfitters, Dewey Barber. The case was about school bans on Confederate flag apparel, & had been decided by the Fourth Circuit court in favor of the South Carolina high school. Mr. Barber was fuming about the court's decision:
it was once considered rude and immoral to fly a confederate flag, now it been taken to a hint of a albulm cover, and the last year any shade of red would be a prison offends. i guess just some people rae never happy even if it effects them is zero. so why not just give them money instead
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
is almost entirely unfamiliar.
